This is topic The Halls of Mandos in forum Silmarillion at Minas Tirith Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000519

Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
I am just wondering what are the rulings of the halls of Mandos. It says in the Silmarillion that none can escape them, yet what are the terms of visiting. Were the Elves allowed to visit their dead ancestors? Were the Valar allowed there?
 
Posted by Ecthelion of the Fountain (Citizen # 955) on :
 
I always thought the halls were on a different place of existence, non corporal, as there were a form of penance it seems unlikely to me that friends and family would be allowed to visit
 
Posted by evenstarofpeople (Citizen # 2931) on :
 
I don't think the elves in Mandos were in physical form, it was just their spirits that were there. For example, when Feanor's mother died, her body remained preserved as if "asleep" in Lorien, even though her spirit was in the halls of Mandos. Therefore, I don't think that a living family member actually could "visit" them.
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Ok, maybe not visiting. But could a living elf enter the halls at all, as they would be able to any of the halls of the other Valar?
 
Posted by Eledhsúle (Citizen # 1980) on :
 
Maybe the elves visited Halls of Mandos, with something like Out of the Body Experience?
People do it all the time, maybe it had some element like that in it.
If every elf was in spirit form in Mandos's Halls, then it would make sence that the living elves visiting were in spirit form too?
But it was just Mandos's ruling who could enter to see their kin.
Maybe?
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Ah, but does it not say that none can escape against the will of Mandos? Would they be able to leave if they went there?

[ 06-16-2003, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Lord Andúril ]
 
Posted by Eledhsúle (Citizen # 1980) on :
 
If Mandos gave them a promission to visit their kin, then they probably got a change leaving?

Or maybe there was a special Hall of it's own where living's spirits could meet their own past family?

Also, probably the more powerful elves could sebarate themselves from their body, which meant they had ways of talking wisely to Mandos and get a chance to meet their family?
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Hmm,

I am not sure about all this leaving the body stuff. I do not know of any out of body experiences apart from death.
 
Posted by Eledhsúle (Citizen # 1980) on :
 
You have many layers in you, physical, etheric and your soul... this is really a shorten version.

Have you heard of etheric waves? It's physics.

People have that same etheric body. Non seeable to physical body. It's your Etheric body that leaves when you go out side your body.
It isn't hard, when you get the hang of it.
People can usually sense you when you go near them, people can also block you out using their aura.
First time is usually quite dramatic if you weren't aiming for that.

I'm babling... sorry.

[ 06-16-2003, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: Eledhsúle ]
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Oh right, you mean the way you have a layer of consiousness that leaves the body, dissipates and reforms. A mind seperate from the body as it were.

[ 06-16-2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Lord Andúril ]
 
Posted by Viscount Vartalion (Citizen # 3122) on :
 
I remember that after the fall of the most handsome of the Noldor Finrod, that Tolkien stated that he's walking with Finarfin his father under the trees of Tuna in the holy realm.
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Well, Elves are allowed to leave, but my question is are elves allowed to go in without dying?
 
Posted by Carnemeril (Citizen # 3470) on :
 
As far as I have been able to conclude from the Tolkien texts I've read, the only way for the elves to get into the Halls of Mandos is when they die, i.e. their spirit leaves their body. So: no, a living elf cannot get there.
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Ok, my next question. Are the Halls of Mandos a physical place or a spiritual place?
 
Posted by Mîrwen Ilúvëanna (Citizen # 3641) on :
 
From what I read in The Atlas of Middle-earth, the Halls of Mandos had a physical location. They are shown as a series of caves on the shores of Ekkaia. The author determined this from descriptions in Tolkien's writing, though I didn't check to see just exactly where.

This is just speculation on my part, but their substance may have existed on a spiritual plane rather than a physical one. If a living being were to stumble upon them, they might just seem like caves, though they might appear quite differently to the fëa. (I am making this judgment from the idea that the Valar where bodies as close so that they are visible to the Eldar, but they really exost on a spiritual plane...)

The only living being to enter there and return as a living being was Lúthien. She was half Maia and probably struck some sort of deal with Mandos.

[ 06-16-2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Mîrwen Ilúvëanna ]
 
Posted by Elentari, Star Queen (Citizen # 3734) on :
 
I read in a post a while ago, not in this thread though, that elves could be reborn after death and that the halls of Mandos were just a place for them to wait until thier rebirth. Is this true?
 
Posted by Fusionstar. (Citizen # 2336) on :
 
quote:
People have that same etheric body. Non seeable to physical body. It's your Etheric body that leaves when you go out side your body.
It isn't hard, when you get the hang of it.
People can usually sense you when you go near them, people can also block you out using their aura.
First time is usually quite dramatic if you weren't aiming for that.

Really? Where might you learn to do this?
 
Posted by Eledhsúle (Citizen # 1980) on :
 
Fusionstar. If you have meditated and channelled before it is rather easy, because channelling can be united with Out Of Body Experience.(OOBE)

But first of all you must have good concentration and you have to be able for example hold a picture of one flower in your mind for three minutes, and not think of anything else at that time.

To actually get out of your body, you have to get calm, kind into a meditation state. But if you haven't done anything like this before don't try it because you're curious, you have to be ready. Then feel your etheric body, it has a certain feel to it than only you know, when you have it just lift or step out of your body.
Some people see a string between them selves and their body, that string should not be cut or let go off, that is important. If you have done it more that few times, the string can disappear which means you can go further. I no longer have that string, actually I didn't have it in the first place.

That is shortly how it's done.

Sorry Andúril, for getting out of your subject.
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Hmm. I would not consider this advisable.
 
Posted by Thorin (Citizen # 816) on :
 
Regarding whether Mandos was an actual physical place, I believe the answer is yes.

quote:
They build a treasury Northward in Valinor in the hills near Mandos' halls.
This quote, regarding the Feanorians from HOME#4, "The Earliest Silmarillion", written pre-1926, shows that the Professor conceptualized the Halls as an actual place early on.

This conception seems not to have changed, as the published Silmarillion states:
quote:
Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor.
The Silmarillion, Valaquenta

Also along those lines, Mandos was actually a place, and Námo the Vala was called "Mandos" from the place where he held sway.

As for if someone can "escape" them, well Luthien and Beren did, as has been mentioned already.
quote:
But the other choice was this: that she might [be released from Mandos and] return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again...
The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien
Of course, this was rather a remarkable case.

I can find no references to Elves visiting their own in the Halls. But of course, that does not mean those references aren't there. It just means I can't find any. []

Then as for the Valar visiting, I believe the answer is yes
quote:
[Nienna] goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
The Silmarillion, Valaquenta
 
Posted by Wandering Tuor (Citizen # 1685) on :
 
As far the Halls' escapeability, I thought there was a line in the Silmarillion somewhere saying that no man or elf could escape thence -- but I could be misremembering. Beren and Lúthien were indeed a special case, and had the intervention of Ilúvatar. I'll see if I can find that line.

[ 06-18-2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Wandering Tuor ]
 
Posted by Orofacion of the Vanyar (Citizen # 1166) on :
 
quote:
I read in a post a while ago, not in this thread though, that elves could be reborn after death and that the halls of Mandos were just a place for them to wait until thier rebirth. Is this true?
Good Elentari, Star Queen,

Yes this is true, though one of the only (if not the only) elf known to be given corporeal form once again is Glorfindel due to his courageous acts in the First Age. His presence in the West is the reason why he seemed so glorious during the War of the Ring.

There are possibly more elves that have regained their physical form, but there are not a vast amount mentioned.
 
Posted by Madomir (Citizen # 3084) on :
 
quote:
There are possibly more elves that have regained their physical form, but there are not a vast amount mentioned.
One reason they may not be mentioned Orofacion could be that the returning elves were returned to Valinor while the story(s) of the elves had shifted to Middle Earth, so they were simply non-factors to the actual story at that point. Glorfindel certainly was not the only elf to die honorably and valiantly so one would think that other elven souls would be granted a rebirth as well. I have no proof that the others did in fact return to Valinor, it's just a theory of mine.

What of Gandalf? He returned. Although, being a Maia, did he actually die?
 
Posted by Mîrwen Ilúvëanna (Citizen # 3641) on :
 
quote:
What of Gandalf? He returned. Although, being a Maia, did he actually die?
Madomir, as Gandalf was a Maia, his body was just as clothing to his spirit. His mortal shell may have died but his spirit returned anew. In the chapter 'The White Rider,' it seems as though he left his body behind and returned slowly, at first as a sort of apparition and eventually came back to being flesh and blood:

quote:
Then the darkness took me, and I stryaed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

'Naked I was sent back--for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked i lay upon the mountain-top....Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.'


 
Posted by Adulithien (Citizen # 2193) on :
 
quote:
From what I read in The Atlas of Middle-earth, the Halls of Mandos had a physical location. They are shown as a series of caves on the shores of Ekkaia. The author determined this from descriptions in Tolkien's writing, though I didn't check to see just exactly where.
Puportedly, she found the information on p. 28 of The Sil and p. 77 of BoLT.

And the passage that was evading WT is found in The Sil, on p. 52:

quote:
...in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast and strong are those halls, and they were built in the West of the land of Aman.
So that would seem to imply that the Halls are physical (built), and that the Valar could go there (theoretically?).
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Okay, we know that the Valar can go there, as Nienna went there from time to time. We also know that there must at least be a physical aspect to the halls as they are given a precise location, whether the spiritual aspect of Mandos is in the same location as its physical aspect is up for discussion.

Now, I feel that the quote concerning the escaping from Mandos means that none can escape the halls without the leave of Namo himself. Apparently, the terms of souls leaving Mandos is that they no longer hold any bitterness against another being. We also know that both Men and Elves are able to leave that place once they have died because of the example of Beren and Lúthien.

My question about whether living relatives can visit their dead relatives, really depends on the question of whether Mandos is both a spiritual place as well as a physical place in the same defined area. For example, would the Living Elves see or hear their dead relatives if they could not experience their spiritual forms? Also, could an elf, being partly in the spirit world themselves see fear seperated from their hroar generally?
 
Posted by Mîrwen Ilúvëanna (Citizen # 3641) on :
 
quote:
My question about whether living relatives can visit their dead relatives, really depends on the question of whether Mandos is both a spiritual place as well as a physical place in the same defined area. For example, would the Living Elves see or hear their dead relatives if they could not experience their spiritual forms?
Based solely upon conjecture and other examples from Tolkien, it seems to me that Mandos would be in some way protected by Námo as Doriath was by Melian. His power could probably have kept anyone else out if they weren't supposed to be there. Also, the Elves in Valinor probably had too much reverence for Námo to go where they were not permitted. Really the majority of the Elves that died were those in Middle-earth, and their kin were much farther away to come and hang out in the caves to wait for a spiritual reunion.

Elves wanting to see their long-lost dead seems like a non-issue...

[ 06-20-2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Mîrwen Ilúvëanna ]
 
Posted by Orofacion of the Vanyar (Citizen # 1166) on :
 
I agree entirely, Madomir, with what you say about other elves given new forms again, I refer to Glorfindel as he is the only known elf to be seen again in Middle Earth. I would suppose elves of such stature as Finrod and Ecthelion were once again given physical form as their deeds were similiar in nobility as the Golden-Haired's were.

As for Mandos; I believe it was a physical place, but also a spiritual place as well. The thing about Aman is that pratically everything there is infact both spiritual and physical in a sense. Elves exist in both realms, and so it would make since that they could "sense" the spirits of their dead kin, but as far as literally seeing them, it is debatable. The elves had no fear of the Nazgul because the elves themselves existed in both the physical realm and the realm the Nazgul occupied, and since men lacked that existence, they would of course fear the unknown as we mortals tend to do.

I also believe any Vala could travel and stay in the realm of Mandos. I don't see why a restriction would be put on any of the Valar, they are equal for the most part in substance. The fact that they would have no reason to travel to such a place is the extinuating circumstance, why would Oromë or Yavannah wish to go to a land of souls?

Bottom line answer to the initial question:

Yes the Halls of Mandos were a physical place, built by the Valar where they could visit if they wish (but none had such desire) as well as elves if they had the desire, however I doubt any elf would willingly travel to such a place considering it was full of sorrow and longing, very negative ambience for any of Eru's children.
 
Posted by Carnemeril (Citizen # 3470) on :
 
quote:
I refer to Glorfindel as he is the only known elf to be seen again in Middle Earth. I would suppose elves of such stature as Finrod and Ecthelion were once again given physical form as their deeds were similiar in nobility as the Golden-Haired's were.
My understanding of the matter is that, all elves that have gone to the Halls of Mandos are allowed to be re-embodied sooner or later, after they've admitted and truly repented whatever they may have done wrong, and let go of all hatred and grudge against anyone and anything. They are given the opportunity to start from a clean table. But, all of the re-embodied elves except Glorfindel stayed in the Blessed Realm, and probably wanted to forget their painful experiences in Middle Earth.

[ 06-27-2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Carnemeril ]
 
Posted by Son_of_Feanor (Citizen # 3239) on :
 
Feanor and his sons arent coming bck for a LONG time. But I wonder if they will be near the same when they return. Will Feanor have his spirit diminished? If he does have it diminished, that would suck big time?
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Well that all depends on what you mean by diminished. He wont come out until his hate for Morgoth subsides, and if you call that part of his Spirit, then his spirit will have diminished yes.
 
Posted by Ecthelion of the Fountain (Citizen # 955) on :
 
little tidbit,

anduril said
quote:
Okay, we know that the Valar can go there (halls of Mandros)
the vastness of mandros was where Melkor was imprisoned after his capture and binding
 
Posted by Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Interesting.

However, we also know of Valar who come and depart. Mandos certainly could, as well as Nienna.
 
Posted by Mîrwen Ilúvëanna (Citizen # 3641) on :
 
quote:
the vastness of mandros was where Melkor was imprisoned after his capture and binding
Melkor was sent into the Void (which is something different from the Halls of Mandos) outside the Walls of the World.

[ 07-14-2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Mîrwen Ilúvëanna ]
 
Posted by Dark Lord Andúril (Citizen # 2564) on :
 
Indeed. However he was also imprisoned in the halls of Mandos for three ages during the time when the Elves awoke.
 
Posted by Mîrwen Ilúvëanna (Citizen # 3641) on :
 
You are correct, sir! I went back and read...  -
 


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1