This is topic The return of the Dunedain??? in forum Lord of the Rings at Minas Tirith Forums.


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Posted by Estel the Ranger (Citizen # 4576) on :
 
i know this may seem dumb but i am used to the death threats by now,

Why didnt any of the Dunedain claim the throne before Aragorn? when i say Dunedain i mean of Aragorns/Isildurs blood line.

cheers
 
Posted by Hidalgo (Citizen # 1083) on :
 
After Arvedui¡s claim failed it was clear that the Gondorians didn't want an Arnorian in the throne.
Besides, just imagine how his claim would have been: Hey, I am a descendant of theose kings that allowed their realms to be destroyed until there was nothing left; but I happen to be distantlly related to your last king, so I think I'll occupy the throne, thank you very much. []
Only when Aragorn came in the extraordinary circumstances of the war of the Ring did he had a chance. And even then, I wonder what would have happenned if Denethor hadn't suicided.
 
Posted by Fangorn (Citizen # 4070) on :
 
This passage is in the appendices:
quote:
'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."
'To this Arvedui replied: "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.
'"Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless."
To this Gondor made no answer. The crown was claimed by Eärnil, the victorious captain; and it was granted to him with the approval of all the Dúnedain in Gondor, since he was of the royal house. He was the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil II. Arvedui did not press his claim; for he had neither the power nor the will to oppose the choice of the Dúnedain of Gondor; yet the claim was never forgotten by his descendants even when their kingship had passed away. For the time was now drawing near when the North-kingdom would come to an end.

Also, this statement by Denethor:
quote:
‘But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’

 
Posted by Saruman's Secret Agent (Citizen # 5552) on :
 
What was the reason used to pass the crown to the eldest male and not the eldest, as it was in Numenor?
Were the women indirectly blamed for the downfall of Numenor?
 
Posted by Ulairë Gordis (Citizen # 5350) on :
 
Never heard that women were blamed for the Downfall.

Nay, the Edain traditionally had the custom of passing the crown to the eldest son - patrilineal descent. Women were excluded, as was always the case in the societies where the King is a military leader of his people.
In Numenor they at first followed the old custom, though the land was at peace. It was not until the times of Aldarion who had only one daughter, that the New Law was announced - simple primogeniture irrespective of sex. But this New law never made its way to Middle Earth, probably because the Dunedain didn't expect to remain in peace. Also, I think that the Lords of Andunie probably never adapted the New law - there is not a single mention of the Lady of Andunie (though not all lords of that line are listed).
 
Posted by Thorin (Citizen # 816) on :
 
Indeed. Check Appendix A, Saruman's Secret Agent. It's very interesting.

quote:
'"Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless."

Note: That law was made in Númenor (as we have learned from the King) when Tar-Aldarion, the sixth king, left only one child, a daughter. She became the first Ruling Queen, Tar-Ancalimë. But the law was otherwise before her time. Tar-Elendil, the fourth king, was succeeded by his son Tar-Meneldur, though his daughter Silmarien was the elder. It was, however, from Silmarien that Elendil was descended'.)

Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
 
Posted by Alcuin (Citizen # 5185) on :
 
Arvedui’s claim was based not upon his lineage, which was solid – he was heir to the throne of Arnor – but upon that of Fíriel, his wife, last surviving child of King Ondoher. Pelendur the Steward, Denethor’s ancestor, led the Royal Council of Gondor in rejecting the claim, no doubt in part because Arthedain was abysmally unsuccessful in fending off Angmar’s military advances. In addition, Gondor in its history had achieved tremendous heights of power under the Four Ship-kings that recalled the glory of Númenor; Arnor had declined from the day of the disaster at Gladden Fields when Isildur was killed. Whom should they choose: the daughter of the last king and her unproven husband, heir to a kingdom with but a tenuous hold on existence, or her third cousin, a victorious captain of royal lineage who pulled the country’s bacon out of the fire when the king and both his sons, brothers of the other claimant, were killed, the younger brother because he impetuously went to battle when he was ordered to stay at home? Hm, decisions, decisions…

For the record, the Council took the Steward Pelendur’s advice, rejected the claim of Arvedui (and Fíriel – don’t forget her!), and the position of Steward was made hereditary. Now who do you suppose did that? Only the king would have such authority…

It sounds dirty, but it probably isn’t; at least, there was probably no quid-pro-quo. Having a permanent steward, given that the dynasty was almost extinguished in the last war, was a wise and excellent move on the part of Eärnil II. And it didn’t hurt that Pelendur was Eärnil’s political ally.

Once the North Kingdom fell, however, there were basically no people to rule there: Arnor ceased to exist. This is something that people are missing about the story: the armies of Angmar killed almost all the Dúnedain of Arnor in the war of III 1974-1975. They weren’t taking them as slaves or permitting them to escape: they killed them – all of them. Only a bare remnant survived, people who must have made it to Rivendell or Lindon, who were not trapped and massacred after the siege and fall of Fornost. Aranarth, the son of Arvedui and Fíriel, ceases to call himself “king” and takes the title of “chieftain.” This is a lot like what Elrond did after the fall of Gil-galad: Elrond is rightfully king of the Sindar as the only heir of Thingol (by Elwing – Dior Eluchíl – Lúthien – Thingol), and the rightful king of the remaining Noldor (by Eärendil – Idril Celebrindal – Turgon – Fingolfin – Finwë), but he never claims any title in Middle-earth at all. The Rangers of the Northern Dúnedain are their military force, trying to keep the last remaining folks alive. (Halbarad could gather 30 Rangers “in haste,” but there must have been at least a few multiples of that number still surviving from families hiding out in the Wilds.)

With no kingdom, and almost no people, the Chieftains were paupers in comparison to the nobility of Gondor, all of whom had a better claim to the throne than Arvedui, even if none of them had a better claim than Fíriel and her son Aranarth. And when Eärnur went AWOL, the Council could not come to any decision about who was the best candidate: it certainly couldn’t be Aranarth, because they had just rejected his father’s claim; and remembering the Kin-strife, they left Mardil the Steward in charge.

Mardil and his family, Tolkien says, were related by blood to the line of Anárion, and could trace their descent to Anárion through daughters of the line; so the Ruling Stewards were exactly what they appeared to be: kings by default, but not in name. Thus Eärnil’s decision proved foresighted indeed.

Malbeth the Seer prophesied when Arvedui was born and named that “‘a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm.’” Makes you wonder what might have been had the Royal Council of Gondor accepted the claim presented by Arvedui and Fíriel.

Finally, Aranarth’s descendents never relinquished their claim on the throne of Gondor. Even as Chieftains of the Dúnedain of the North, they technically maintained their claim on the throne; but until Aragorn led the armies of Gondor to victory, as had Eärnil II before him, they had no means to bring home that claim.

[ 10-03-2006, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Alcuin ]
 
Posted by Mithrennaith (Citizen # 5239) on :
 
Alcuin, on a side issue:
quote:
This is a lot like what Elrond did after the fall of Gil-galad: Elrond is rightfully king of the Sindar as the only heir of Thingol (by Elwing – Dior Eluchíl – Lúthien – Thingol), and the rightful king of the remaining Noldor (by Eärendil – Idril Celebrindal – Turgon – Fingolfin – Finwë), but he never claims any title in Middle-earth at all.
Now, wouldn't Galadriel have at least as good a claim to being rightful queen of the Noldor in M-e (descent Finarfin - Finwë)? She was in any case a closer relative to Gil-galad (descent Finrod - Finarfin) than Elrond was.
 
Posted by Captain of Gondor (Citizen # 5254) on :
 
If she had wanted too. But, as we know, she was content with ruling over a few elves.
 
Posted by Mithrennaith (Citizen # 5239) on :
 
Indeed she was, as was Elrond.
 
Posted by Snöwdog (Citizen # 15) on :
 
quote:
Alcuin said: "Arvedui’s claim was based not upon his lineage, which was solid – he was heir to the throne of Arnor – but upon that of Fíriel, his wife, last surviving child of King Ondoher. Pelendur the Steward, Denethor’s ancestor, led the Royal Council of Gondor in rejecting the claim, no doubt in part because Arthedain was abysmally unsuccessful in fending off Angmar’s military advances. In addition, Gondor in its history had achieved tremendous heights of power under the Four Ship-kings that recalled the glory of Númenor; Arnor had declined from the day of the disaster at Gladden Fields when Isildur was killed. Whom should they choose: the daughter of the last king and her unproven husband, heir to a kingdom with but a tenuous hold on existence, or her third cousin, a victorious captain of royal lineage who pulled the country’s bacon out of the fire when the king and both his sons, brothers of the other claimant, were killed, the younger brother because he impetuously went to battle when he was ordered to stay at home? Hm, decisions, decisions…

For the record, the Council took the Steward Pelendur’s advice, rejected the claim of Arvedui (and Fíriel – don’t forget her!), and the position of Steward was made hereditary. Now who do you suppose did that? Only the king would have such authority…

It sounds dirty, but it probably isn’t; at least, there was probably no quid-pro-quo. Having a permanent steward, given that the dynasty was almost extinguished in the last war, was a wise and excellent move on the part of Eärnil II. And it didn’t hurt that Pelendur was Eärnil’s political ally.

Once the North Kingdom fell, however, there were basically no people to rule there: Arnor ceased to exist. This is something that people are missing about the story: the armies of Angmar killed almost all the Dúnedain of Arnor in the war of III 1974-1975. They weren’t taking them as slaves or permitting them to escape: they killed them – all of them. Only a bare remnant survived, people who must have made it to Rivendell or Lindon, who were not trapped and massacred after the siege and fall of Fornost. Aranarth, the son of Arvedui and Fíriel, ceases to call himself “king” and takes the title of “chieftain.” This is a lot like what Elrond did after the fall of Gil-galad: Elrond is rightfully king of the Sindar as the only heir of Thingol (by Elwing – Dior Eluchíl – Lúthien – Thingol), and the rightful king of the remaining Noldor (by Eärendil – Idril Celebrindal – Turgon – Fingolfin – Finwë), but he never claims any title in Middle-earth at all. The Rangers of the Northern Dúnedain are their military force, trying to keep the last remaining folks alive. (Halbarad could gather 30 Rangers “in haste,” but there must have been at least a few multiples of that number still surviving from families hiding out in the Wilds.)

With no kingdom, and almost no people, the Chieftains were paupers in comparison to the nobility of Gondor, all of whom had a better claim to the throne than Arvedui, even if none of them had a better claim than Fíriel and her son Aranarth. And when Eärnur went AWOL, the Council could not come to any decision about who was the best candidate: it certainly couldn’t be Aranarth, because they had just rejected his father’s claim; and remembering the Kin-strife, they left Mardil the Steward in charge.

Mardil and his family, Tolkien says, were related by blood to the line of Anárion, and could trace their descent to Anárion through daughters of the line; so the Ruling Stewards were exactly what they appeared to be: kings by default, but not in name. Thus Eärnil’s decision proved foresighted indeed.

Malbeth the Seer prophesied when Arvedui was born and named that “‘a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm.’” Makes you wonder what might have been had the Royal Council of Gondor accepted the claim presented by Arvedui and Fíriel.

Finally, Aranarth’s descendents never relinquished their claim on the throne of Gondor. Even as Chieftains of the Dúnedain of the North, they technically maintained their claim on the throne; but until Aragorn led the armies of Gondor to victory, as had Eärnil II before him, they had no means to bring home that claim."

quote:
Thorin quoted from : '"Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless."

Note: That law was made in Númenor (as we have learned from the King) when Tar-Aldarion, the sixth king, left only one child, a daughter. She became the first Ruling Queen, Tar-Ancalimë. But the law was otherwise before her time. Tar-Elendil, the fourth king, was succeeded by his son Tar-Meneldur, though his daughter Silmarien was the elder. It was, however, from Silmarien that Elendil was descended'.)

It seems I missed this whole discussion from back in 2004-2006...
It is interesting that the female ascension law was conveniently left floundering in the seas along with Numenor. Whereas I don't think that women were indirectly blamed for the downfall of Numenor, there was definitely no power in the female heirs to make claims to or be given the throne. It is odd that the law regress to the male heir after it had been 'eldest heir' in Numenor for such a long time.
 
Posted by Estel the Ranger (Citizen # 4576) on :
 
Dang it Snowy! Is 13 years the turnaround for answers these days? []
 
Posted by Snöwdog (Citizen # 15) on :
 
Something like that, yes. []
 


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