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Author Topic: Star Wars
Hamfast Gamgee
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You know, if you ask me, there already has been a movie made pretty much based on the Lotr. Called Star Wars. The silmarlarity between the two tales are quite striking despite that one is set in an imaginary world and one is set in space. I'm sure George Lucas must have read Tolkien!
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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Here's an article comparing (contrasting) the film series:

http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/movies/feature/2002/01/09/lotr_starwars/

And a more detailed examination of the respective mythopoetics in LOR and SW:

http://www.decentfilms.com/sections/articles/starwars.html

Jackson's LOTR simply doesn't have the staying power as Star Wars. In 10 years time, let alone 30 years, no one will be talking about Jackson's movies.

For instance, I've seen the 3-DVD editions for LOTR selling for $12.99 each. Anything below $10 is cutout bin. On teh other hand, a good friend's son, who's 3 years old, is absolutely nuts for Star Wars, specifically Yoda -- Empire Strikes Back Yoda -- and the Jedi. It's already an influence in his childhood fantasies.

But as for the film Star Wars being based on LOTR, Hamfast I strongly disagree. SW was an amalgam of various sources: from 1930s movie space operas like Flash Gordon to Chinese wuxia films. Throw in some Arthurian-type cosmology (a warrior's sword regained), too.

Lucas was inspired in part by Tolkien, and having read his earlier drafts for the screenplay found a stronger focus on mysticism that to me seems more Tolkienian. But to call Star Wars a rehash of LOTR in space isn't exactly accurate.

Check out Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces. That was one of the primary sources for Lucas.

[ 12-02-2007, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Silmahtar ]

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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I agree, Silm. While there are perhaps some nods to Tolkien in Star Wars, it isn't even close to an adaptation or even a ripoff. It isn't even the closest to Tolkien within the Science Fiction genre. The television series Babylon 5 feels more Tolkienish to me than Star Wars, and yet even that story only mirrors Tolkien in a few broad strokes.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Strongly disagree, Slim? Ah well, I suppose that's called debate! But I think there are parrels at least in the broad plotlines, with in Lotr the One Ring been the device which the evil guys can control destiny with, it been the Death Star in Star Wars, Gandalf = Obi-wan Kenobi, at least in the first film, Palpatine = Sauron, Stormtroopers = Orcs. Also, possibly in the wide range of different species shown. I agree that there are differences, but once you have an idea of a superweapon, there is lots you can do with it!
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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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quote:
But I think there are parrels at least in the broad plotlines, with in Lotr the One Ring been the device which the evil guys can control destiny with, it been the Death Star in Star Wars, Gandalf = Obi-wan Kenobi, at least in the first film, Palpatine = Sauron, Stormtroopers = Orcs.
I'm not saying there's no crossover (as you put it "broad plotlines"); it's been established that LOTR was one of many sources Lucas drew upon -- and this is from his own words, BTW

However, you claimed that Star Wars was based on LOTR, which is not true. If you want to prove your case, fine, but to convince anyone you'll have to do better than list a bunch of tenuous analogies.

DPR: How good is Babylon 5? I've never seen any of it, and would like to, based on the opinions I've read about it. However, hesitation is that I don't like Star Trek-type sci-fi at all and I was hugely disappointed in Battlestar Galactica 2.0... Essentially, the same quarters where I've heard B5 praised on high has also praised other series's that I don't like.

[ 12-07-2007, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Silmahtar ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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With regard to Star Wars v. LotR, you have to remember that while both were about the corrupting influence of power, only LotR was against power altogether. Otherwise, Gandalf would have said "Use the Ring, Frodo!"

As for orcs, clone-troopers, Klingons etc, they stem from basically from classic sophistry involving a warrior-caste vs. soldiers from among the regular society, and so become ruthless, lacking the regular sensibilities, loyalties and moral restraint; Aristotle, for instance, faulted Hippodamus for such a sophistry of an "ideal society," claiming that the warrior caste would take over, as later occurred in Rome under Caesar.

[ 12-10-2007, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Well, Wiki, I think that had the Rebellion managed somehow to capture the Death Star, they wouldn't have used it to destroy whole planets. Indeed in one of the later books as the New Republic they do come across a weapon of such a nature and refused to use it. In fact, in the later books there where quite a few super-weapons of this nature. I was told that some of the fans where getting a bit bored of that idea and wanted some new ideas. Though I'm not entirely convinced this is true now!
As regards Babylon 5, yes that was a supurb bit of Sci-fi. In it's own way it knocked spots of Star Trek. I understand that the program lost some viewers in it's last series, which is a bit of a pity because some of the episodes, the one in which the Telepaths all committed suicide, where the best Sci-fi I think I have seen!

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
Well, Wiki, I think that had the Rebellion managed somehow to capture the Death Star, they wouldn't have used it to destroy whole planets.
I was talking about the Force; indeed, the Jedi have no problem using it to impose their will on others, which was only real power of the Ring-- or the Force (aside from the "simple tricks and nonsense").
However no one ever suggested exterminating all midichlorians.

quote:
Indeed in one of the later books as the New Republic they do come across a weapon of such a nature and refused to use it. In fact, in the later books there where quite a few super-weapons of this nature. I was told that some of the fans where getting a bit bored of that idea and wanted some new ideas. Though I'm not entirely convinced this is true now!
The EU is not canon.

quote:
As regards Babylon 5, yes that was a supurb bit of Sci-fi. In it's own way it knocked spots of Star Trek.
Deep Crap 5 didn't touch classic Star Trek (i.e. the original series); Straczinski (or whatever his name is) is a pure pseudo-intellect of the most obvious character, more a man of Heinleinian pretense than creativity-- as well as pure junk-science (i.e. some from Star Wars, other from 2001) etc. More a random sci-fi sloppourri.
Ok for the adolescents who watch anything, but zero staying-power.

quote:
I understand that the program lost some viewers in it's last series, which is a bit of a pity because some of the episodes, the one in which the Telepaths all committed suicide, where the best Sci-fi I think I have seen!
Speaking of abusing telepathy... classic Star Trek used it only to solve lengthy interrogation-scenes, but The Killer B's blew the lid off that tasteful restraint... along with all others.

[ 12-12-2007, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Pippin Toker
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Hi

I hope PEter JAcksons movies will be seen as an old movie in 20 years and then someone will make a new ones that fit that age. One thing im certain, Lord of the Rings will still be read in 20 years and that is the thing that count.

Kim

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Amárië
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I really hope nobody makes any more movies of LotR, ever. []

Some things are better left to the imagination.

And if they ever try doing a Silmarillion movie... [] [] [] [] []

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Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
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Why would that anger you so much, Amárië? No one would force you to see it []
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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That's been well-covered before; not seeing something, doesn't negate the damage that it causes; this isn't the Ark of the Covenant we're talking about (contrary to PJ-philes' beliefs), where you can just shut your eyes and nothing bad will happen becase you don't look on the glory of God.

It's more like when people who didn't like Hitler simply "turned off the radio," as such anti-critics advocated then like they do now.

Rather, "qui tacit consentire," i.e. the silent are taken to consent; hence Amárië has simply voiced the opinion that "no Tolkien movie can do his work justice."

I, however, find that view a bit extreme, since it basically says that "if PJ can't do it, no one can." (However it also may simply say that the movies were so fallacious as to do for Tolkien-movies what Hiroshima did for nuclear war, as to put the world off it forever in order to never risk such a vile atrocity).

However as I've expressed in another thread, PJ was the absolute worst, worst WORST choice to make a Tolkien film, since his raison d'etre (no that's not a type of pastry, for you movie-philes) made him basically the anti-Tolkien-- and so he didn't know what he was doing, since that stance embodies pseudo-intellectual presumption and ignorance as well.

Meanwhile many movie-makers are quite capable of researching, expressing, and even understanding Tolkien's message-- and producing it without slapping their own opposite message over it and calling it Tolkien's.

Thus, as Gandalf might say to PJ, "The wise speak only of what they know, Gríma son of Gálmód. A witless worm have you become. Therefore be silent, and keep your forked tongue behind your teeth."

And another might add: "Let Gimli the Dwarf Glóin's son warn you against foolish words. You speak evil of that which is fair beyond the reach of your thought, and only little wit can excuse you."

[ 03-09-2008, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Amárië
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quote:
Rather, "qui tacit consentire," i.e. the silent are taken to consent; hence Amárië has simply voiced the opinion that "no Tolkien movie can do his work justice."

I, however, find that view a bit extreme, since it basically says that "if PJ can't do it, no one can." (However it also may simply say that the movies were so fallacious as to do for Tolkien-movies what Hiroshima did for nuclear war, as to put the world off it forever in order to never risk such a vile atrocity).

Since your similes are choking to death on hyperbole (I would hardly compare the making of a movie - no matter how horrible - to the Holocaust or a war crime), I would like to clarify my comments.

I don't believe that any book the scale of The Silmarillion can be done justice in a movie, no matter how good the director or his production team. To condense The Silmarillion into a three (or even nine) hour movie would necessitate the removal of so much of what makes that book beautiful that it would be utterly stripped of its soul.

I also have no desire to see Fëanor (quite likely my favorite literary character of all time) turned into a Hollywood card-board cut out, or the images in my mind of Valinor and the Undying Lands replaced by some fake Hollywood set. I want these images and these characters to live in my mind, unsullied and pure, as the "reader response" if you will ( [] ) of my reading of The Silmarillion.

Perhaps also I have been discouraged by other books that I love which have been turned to movies. Les Misérables, for instance, has been repeatedly raped by Hollywood. The Postman is a fantastic book about the rebirth of hope in post-apocalyptic America, and was absolutely ravaged in movie format. Those are two examples, but the list is endless.

I do not believe, as WiKi stated that 'if PJ can't do it, no one can.' With regards to PJ, my belief is that he was the only one recently who has been stupid enough to try. Any good director would realize that such a work is not easily translatable into a movie format...the movie equivalent of doing a Swahili translation of Finnegan's Wake - an incredibly difficult task because you have to understand the complexities of the book in its original before you can even attempt to translate it to another medium.

quote:
However as I've expressed in another thread, PJ was the absolute worst, worst WORST choice to make a Tolkien film, since his raison d'etre (no that's not a type of pastry, for you movie-philes) made him basically the anti-Tolkien-- and so he didn't know what he was doing, since that stance embodies pseudo-intellectual presumption and ignorance as well.
PJ wasn't great, but I'm sure there are worse directors that could have been chosen. PJ's not a fantastic director by any means, but he's hardly the absolute worst. And anyway, unless every single director has made a movie of LotR, how could you possibly support this assumption?

[ 03-09-2008, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
Since your similes are choking to death on hyperbole (I would hardly compare the making of a movie - no matter how horrible - to the Holocaust or a war crime),
Well who would? If you think that's what I said, I certainly hope that English isn't your first langauge-- but in any case you clearly need a translator.

Meanwhile if you're trying to Politically-Correct me, you're best off starting with Bill Maher since I taught him everything he knows about being PI.

quote:
I would like to clarify my comments.

I don't believe that any book the scale of The Silmarillion can be done justice in a movie, no matter how good the director or his production team. To condense The Silmarillion into a three (or even nine) hour movie would necessitate the removal of so much of what makes that book beautiful that it would be utterly stripped of its soul.
I also have no desire to see Fëanor (quite likely my favorite literary character of all time) turned into a Hollywood card-board cut out, or the images in my mind of Valinor and the Undying Lands replaced by some fake Hollywood set.

Gotcha-- you think even the best production-team will strip the story of its beauty and turn Fëanor into a Hollywood cardboard cut out, and replace Valinor and the Undying Lands with some fake Hollywood set.

Well, I disagree; things have progressed a bit since the days of using sets for everything; I've been a technical consultant for some time. And if you read Tolkien's text as well as you read mine to deduce a comparison to the Holocaust and war-crimes, you may have an idea of these things as well that's quite different from what Tolkien intended.

[ 03-09-2008, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Amárië
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So it goes.
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However as I've expressed in another thread, PJ was the absolute worst, worst WORST choice to make a Tolkien film, since his raison d'etre (no that's not a type of pastry, for you movie-philes) made him basically the anti-Tolkien-- and so he didn't know what he was doing, since that stance embodies pseudo-intellectual presumption and ignorance as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PJ wasn't great, but I'm sure there are worse directors that could have been chosen. PJ's not a fantastic director by any means, but he's hardly the absolute worst. And anyway, unless every single director has made a movie of LotR, how could you possibly support this assumption?

Who said anything about him as a director? I said he was the worst choice, because of other reasons.
You wouldn't choose an anti-semite to make "Schindler's List," and so likewise one wouldn't likewise wouldn't choose an ignorant, uneducated, unread, anti-Catholic, anti-classical, anti-HERO Britonophobe to make LotR-- particularly one with a Napoleon complex.
I can't imagine a single director or producer, who is more a polar-opposite from Tolkien, than PJ.

[ 03-10-2008, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Nahar
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If the question comes to influences or based on this and that, all you need to do is read The Odyssey, and you've basically read every epic narrative that ever has or will be made, with each author changing the format to fit their character/setting/motif needs. []

 -


Cheers, Homer! []

[ 03-10-2008, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Nahar ]

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"It is told that when the hosts of the Eldalië departed from Cuiviénen Oromë rode at their head upon Nahar, his white horse shod with gold..."

Tolkien, The Silmarillion, Of The Coming of the Elves

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Amárië
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Hmm, that's questionable.

I prefer Beowulf and the Táin Bó Cúailnge to the The Odyssey, although The Odyssey does have its moments.

I don't think that there is one pentiultimate epic tale...each culture needs their own.

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Nahar
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It's not my favorite by any means...but it was written in 700 B.C. ; It was the first so far as we know, and it set the format for all latter epics, which is still generally followed today [] even by Star Wars and such (compare that to the Odyssey! [] ), whether the author is directly inspired by Homer or not.

[ 03-10-2008, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Nahar ]

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"It is told that when the hosts of the Eldalië departed from Cuiviénen Oromë rode at their head upon Nahar, his white horse shod with gold..."

Tolkien, The Silmarillion, Of The Coming of the Elves

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Amárië
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Well, I don't know that you can say authoritatively that it set the format for later epics. Yes, it was written early, but at that time it's not necessarily a given that it would have travelled internationally and been well known all over the world.

Many epics were oral tradition before they were written, so while the Tain wasn't published until the 11th century, it likely goes back much further - it might even be older than the Odyssey, who knows?

My point is that all civilizations have some kind of book or mythology, and I think it is more an instrument of human nature than other cultures attempting to emulate the Odyssey.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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But I suppose the question on my mind is how much does using the basic principle of another story but changing some of the settings and perhaps the characters personalities become copying or original? It's rather a tricky issue. It's partly because if George Lucas can get away with writting Star Wars as an original drama, can I write something a little like the Hobbit in the Star Wars universe? But obviously with some of my own ideas thrown in!
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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Not really, it's a pretty stagnant galaxy, while Bilbo's world was on the verge of a new era. SW was about a tiny upheaval in a Taoist universe.
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Nahar
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quote:
Not really, it's a pretty stagnant galaxy, while Bilbo's world was on the verge of a new era.
On the contrary, in Star Wars, they are on the verge of a new era essentially; when the Empire is overthrown the Next Age (Return) of the Jedi begins, sort of parallel to the Fourth Age or the Return of the Kings of Men.

quote:
SW was about a tiny upheaval in a Taoist universe.
I do not understand how this is so different than LoTR. Sauron was as 'tiny an upheaval' as the Emperor, considering that all the greater magnitude events had already taken place in the Silmarillion...the overthrow of Sauron by casting the Ring into the fire is by all means considerably tiny when you compare it to the host of Valinor marching upon Melkor...(If the Ainur didn't have their isolationist policy, then I'm pretty sure Manwë could have just spit on Barad-Dúr and it would have toppled. [] )

***

As for the Taoist part I'm not quite sure where you are getting at with that, are you referring to the Dao (道, flow of the universe; force) the concept of wu wei (無爲, simple life & virtues), or the yin and yang (陰陽, concept of polarity; 'heaven and earth')?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"It is told that when the hosts of the Eldalië departed from Cuiviénen Oromë rode at their head upon Nahar, his white horse shod with gold..."

Tolkien, The Silmarillion, Of The Coming of the Elves

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Hamfast Gamgee
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I think a story could be told in the Star Wars galaxy, but around 80 years before the events of the movies. In roughly the same way that the Hobbit is 80 years before lotr. Weather this is 80 years before the original movies or the prequeals, I haven't quite decided! Yes, I would agree that most of the galaxy would be quiet at the time, but perhaps a minority of it would be wild and unruly. The reason that I say it would be a little like the Hobbit in only the broadest of principles is that I would like the tale to read like a fairy-tale. With no Super-weapons, I hope. And what my main character would do would be somehow to influence matters in the Galaxy for good. But I might make a means for my hero to become invisible! He also wouldn't really be much of a fighter in the same way as a Hobbit. But beyond that much, I haven't really decided what to write!
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Aragon the First
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There are already some stories that take place long before any of the movies. KOTOR 1 and 2 are the most popular, but there are dozens of canon comic books that detail the various wars between the Jedi and the Sith out there.
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