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Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Lord of the Rings » Long-haired Legolas? (Page 3)
Author Topic: Long-haired Legolas?
Galin
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quote:
If someone had long hair it got mentioned.

Therefore if it wasn't mentioned, then they didn't have it-- that's called a "logical contrapositive."

The first statement contains an assumption. We don't know that an Elf will necessarily be mentioned as having long hair simply because it is some measure of what could be called 'long'. Without step one you can't move on to the next, and all you really have is an unfounded assertion.

Is Beleg or Gwindor's hair mentioned as long in any text? I may have missed an example (and I only checked references written before the illustration was made), but anyway Tolkien depicted Beleg (and Gwindor) with long hair in any case: if we find a description in any tale then we have a textual example of a long haired famous Bowman (to add to the illustration, which doesn't exactly help your argument in general -- at least about length as opposed to keeping it out of the way in some manner). And if we don't find a textual example, then this speaks against your statement.

Of course this example really doesn't matter much in any event, as it remains that you are making an assertion that is not necessarily true in the first place to get to your 'logical contrapositive'.

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Galin
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quote:
So Legolas had relatively short, dark hair, right?
We don't know with respect to the length. And as for color one can guess that he had dark hair, or suggest he 'should' be or might be considered dark-haired, because we know that golden hair was relatively unusual among the Eldar of Middle-earth. And one would 'guess' that Thranduil himself is dark-haired using the same general information and approach -- except that we have a specific description of golden hair with Thranduil.

If there's a mythic tale set in Japan one can guess the hero and his small band of wanderers are dark-haired (if not described) because one knows something generally of course. If the hero is unique however, maybe he's silver-haired; but what about the length and the others -- if the hero's hair is described as loose and long at one point that doesn't necessarily mean only his hair is worn that way.

Christopher Tolkien removed the specific reference to Celegorm's hair color due to the later general statement concerning the dark haired Noldor (and noting the golden house of Finarfin among them) -- despite that in the last extant version of Quenta Silmarillion Tolkien had described Celegorm as golden haired. Apparently the color was not mentioned in any later context, so CJRT (for reasons of consistency it would seem) allows the Reader to default Celegorm 'the fair' as dark-haired.

Anyway, the point is we work with what we think might be true in a specific case (when lacking specific information), given what we know in more general terms. But even that is only a guide and in no way hinders the creator of Middle-earth from making the Noldorin Míriel silver-haired (for example).

I'm not particularly interested in debating what Jackson should have done with Legolas' hair as far as using a bow is concerned (I don't like the films but I would call this a nitpick in any case). But I see nothing so far in this thread which tells me I must accept as 'fact' that Tolkien's Legolas had short hair simply because some Elves are mentioned as having had long hair.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
We don't know with respect to the length. And as for color one can guess that he had dark hair, or suggest he 'should' be or might be considered dark-haired, because we know that golden hair was relatively unusual among the Eldar of Middle-earth. And one would 'guess' that Thranduil himself is dark-haired using the same general information and approach -- except that we have a specific description of golden hair with Thranduil.

If there's a mythic tale set in Japan one can guess the hero and his small band of wanderers are dark-haired (if not described) because one knows something generally of course. If the hero is unique however, maybe he's silver-haired; but what about the length and the others -- if the hero's hair is described as loose and long at one point that doesn't necessarily mean only his hair is worn that way.

Christopher Tolkien removed the specific reference to Celegorm's hair color due to the later general statement concerning the dark haired Noldor (and noting the golden house of Finarfin among them) -- despite that in the last extant version of Quenta Silmarillion Tolkien had described Celegorm as golden haired. Apparently the color was not mentioned in any later context, so CJRT (for reasons of consistency it would seem) allows the Reader to default Celegorm 'the fair' as dark-haired.

Anyway, the point is we work with what we think might be true in a specific case (when lacking specific information), given what we know in more general terms. But even that is only a guide and in no way hinders the creator of Middle-earth from making the Noldorin Míriel silver-haired (for example).

I'm not particularly interested in debating what Jackson should have done with Legolas' hair as far as using a bow is concerned (I don't like the films but I would call this a nitpick in any case). But I see nothing so far in this thread which tells me I must accept as 'fact' that Tolkien's Legolas had short hair simply because some Elves are mentioned as having had long hair.

Newbie:
eat shhit and die... quickly, please.
(And they wonder why I lose patience with these fuccks).

[ 03-25-2008, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Roll of Honor Thangail
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Perspective.
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Snöwdog
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Another classic classless post by the wank king of anger.
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Archer
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quote:
(BTW, the phrase was "bending his bow and fitting an arrow--" no mention of his raising the bow and POINTING it at Éomer, which would have Legolas resembling a porcupine quite quickly since some of the riders already had beads on him).
No. Just no. []

Never mind all the other fallacies you've got going in the same breath--you don't "bend" a bow without raising it. The bow is raised and drawn in one fluid motion, always, every time, without exception. Here's a little course in the basics for you. Sorry for its lame Idiot's Guide format, but clarity seems greatly needed.

The 8 Steps of Shooting a Bow

Dear Lord, can it be that Legolas did something that should have been met with proper retort--and wasn't? Must be that deus ex machina at work again. Tolkien was a master at it apparently. []

And just for the record, raising a bow is not the same as aiming ("pointing" as you call it); they are two separate steps. Aiming follows raising/drawing. sigh.

quote:
I'll pass, since I admit my ability to debate straight facts, pales in yours to distort them ad nauseum infinitum.
Translation: "I know you are but what am I!"

Pathetic.

If you want to see valid argumentation tactics, here's a good example.

quote:
The first statement contains an assumption. We don't know that an Elf will necessarily be mentioned as having long hair simply because it is some measure of what could be called 'long'. Without step one you can't move on to the next, and all you really have is an unfounded assertion.

Is Beleg or Gwindor's hair mentioned as long in any text? I may have missed an example (and I only checked references written before the illustration was made), but anyway Tolkien depicted Beleg (and Gwindor) with long hair in any case: if we find a description in any tale then we have a textual example of a long haired famous Bowman (to add to the illustration, which doesn't exactly help your argument in general -- at least about length as opposed to keeping it out of the way in some manner). And if we don't find a textual example, then this speaks against your statement.

[] Galin

quote:
Anyway on the topic of fight scenes HERE I say is a relevant video []

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7fd30xOE-w

Nahar, Orly does say he had trouble with the bow, and it was the film (or PJ) that made him look good. False modesty perhaps? Don't know, but it may not have been as simple for him as it comes across in the film.

Either way, I don't have a specific issue with Legolas's hair in the film (it's really Orlando Bloom I just can't abide, not his wig) and can suspend belief for the romance of it--if it had been a good film. Long hair is outside the ordinary, as a modern audience would view it, and gives a good impression of something wild and a bit above us, as Legolas would have likely been.

Long hair, also, has largely been the norm historically. If we want to believe that the story takes place "somewhere" in the past, it might be easier to imagine the characters with long/longish hair rather than very short. Besides, the long-haired descriptions of various characters seem more for the purpose of vivid imagery, rather than to single them out as "different" from everyone else. Vivid description makes for good writing, and Tolkien as a great story-teller knew this, though going through the same motions for all characters would have gotten redundant. He did what he did when it was either essential or effective.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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You don't bend a bow without raising it? They're completely independent of one another.
Sorry, but I'm tired of arguing with someone who clearly suffers from a missing Y-chromosome... no wonder Gay-lin agrees with you.

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Archer
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Yes of course, he stepped on it. [] Easy to see how his hair would get caught in it that way.
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Madomir
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Edit:
Decided to delete what had been an exceedingly witty response [] in an attempt to keep what's left of the peace []

[ 03-26-2008, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Madomir ]

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Rumil
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any fool who would want to make a short haired elf deserves death... [] find me one painting of an elf with short hair... [] Tolkien never writes anything that would imply short hair...
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Aragon the First
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I have to agree with you Rumil , its hard to imagine any elf having short hair, unless his or her job somehow required it. Of course, that may just be how people think of elves nowadays, regardless of which "universe" they come from.
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Artaresto
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quote:
its hard to imagine any elf having short hair
Why, really? [] Are you suggesting that elves didn't know of different haircuts?

Rumil: These pictures features Fëanor, Maedhros, Amrod and Amras with short hair. There you go. Great drawings as well. []

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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One would think Elves were clever enough to invent scissors, razors, etc. and that they were individual enough to not all have the same hairstyle.
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Amárië
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I can't imagine Fëanor not having short hair.

How stupid would he have to be to work in a smithy - ie, around fire and sparks - and have long hair?

He certainly wouldn't have long hair for very long, that's for sure. One well-placed spark and his whole hairdo would go up in flames...I see Curufin the same way, for the same reasons...

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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See? They wouldn't even need scissors. Just light 'em up and in a few minutes, short hair.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Ah, well, perhaps that was the thing. Feanor had short hair, so the other Noldor had long hair as a reaction to him. Possibly enough to make anyone angry. []
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Galin
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quote:
I can't imagine Fëanor not having short hair. How stupid would he have to be to work in a smithy - ie, around fire and sparks -and have long hair?
I don't know if this is necessarily a factor leading to short hair however, as we have Dwarvish smiths.

The name Firebeards aside []

(the Longbeards: 'for their beards swept the floor before their feet')

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Amárië
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Well, it should, because it's simple common sense. Those dwarves must have had a whole lot of beard fires, unless their beards are made out of something other than hair. []
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Aragon the First
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Obviously, they wear chainmail beard protecters to keep from being a short Roman Candle.
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Wetwang
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Or maybe dwarves wore their beards in a net, just like Siekh gentlemen do, when they wore those helms with visors that they were so famous for going into battle against Glaurung with that were based upon the visors they wore when at their forges []
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Madomir
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quote:
Or maybe dwarves wore their beards in a net, just like Siekh gentlemen do
I saw a dwarf slaving over a boiling cauldron of fry oil at McDonald's the other day. For what it's worth, he went with the beard net. []

quote:
One well-placed spark and his whole hairdo would go up in flames...
I wonder if Feanor himself ever actually used the term hairdo. Being technically gifted as he was, I always envisioned Feanor saying something more along the lines of follicular configuration. []
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Amárië
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quote:
I wonder if Feanor himself ever actually used the term hairdo. Being technically gifted as he was, I always envisioned Feanor saying something more along the lines of follicular configuration.
[] []

Really, though, I don't see Fëanor actually caring that much about his hair. []

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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He probably would care more about his linguistics and his vocabulary than about his hair []
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Roll of Honor Aikanáro
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I don't suppose it's possible that elves might have had long hair but kept it out of the way in fancy updos when it might have been a hazard to have it loose and flying about everywhere?

Beards though, they are tricky. Braiding? []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Vanima i metta nauva, nan anda ar sarda nauva i mallë.

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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Fëanor?
 -

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