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Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Lord of the Rings » Long-haired Legolas? (Page 2)
Author Topic: Long-haired Legolas?
Amárië
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Legolas:

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[] [] []

From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wetwang
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Ecthelion of the Fountain and Glorfindel? []
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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More like Ecthelion of the Fountain and Gothmog Lord of Balrogs []

(I know they said the Fall of Gondolin wasn't pretty, but I had NO IDEA!)

Ok Wang, I'm saying this ONCE-- do NOT compare the greatest movie ever made, with that crap!

(You'll make "Blades of Glory" look GAY by comparing it to PJ's stuff!) []

[ 03-22-2008, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
So you just can't figure how he could keep his hair short other than by force of will.
(No WONDER you don't like the lit forums!)

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You've obviously missed some things I said above. You must have a hard time trying to keep everyone's argument in counter. Figures some of it would get away from you.

No, that was it-- I just figured if you can't handle the concept of shears, then I wouldn't want to confuse you.

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quote:
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Which combines argument from ignorance with non sequitur, i.e. you're claiming if a bow of unkonwn make can go for a long time without the string being specifically stated to be loosed, then long hair can't get caught it.
Ok.

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Sure, whatever you say. That's some rock solid argumentation and logic you're using there.

You're the one who claimed it HAD to be deus ex machina because they never ran into Conan the Barber-ian.

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He didn't immediately think of him as Legolas, though. Orlando Bloom first auditioned for Faramir, but didn't get the part.
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No, of course, and I didn't say he did; however that PJ seems to have arbitrarily assigned him to the part of Legolas as an afterthought neither demonstrates to me he was a very strong choice for the role. It's like PJ himself wasn't sure who or what would make a good Legolas and just went with whoever could fit into the tights or whatever.

PJ wouldn't know Tolkien from Tolstoy.

[ 03-21-2008, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Amárië
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Pff, and I was being serious. []

Well...sort of serious. []

Vaguely. []

Well, Kulik would have made a better Legolas than Orly, anyway... []

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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Angelina Jolie would-- at least she HAS lips!
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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Galin:
quote:
Edit: found an image, currently in Were there barbers in ME? (in The Hobbit forum) here at MT.

And yes I know it's early in date and need not represent Tolkien's later idea of Beleg in all details; but the point is, though early it was made after the Lay and etc. (as I said above), and thus is at least an example of Beleg 'the Bowman' with long hair as depicted by Tolkien himself.

Here's link to said message.
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Archer
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quote:
I just figured if you can't handle the concept of shears, then I wouldn't want to confuse you.
Well, I don't know, WiKi; stranger things have happened. After all, the less convolute concept of merely tying the hair back seems to have thoroughly flummoxed you.

quote:
You're the one who claimed it HAD to be deus ex machina because they never ran into Conan the Barber-ian.
Oh, but of course. Tolkien inventing other-world rules by which some characters function (i.e., Legolas walking on top of the the snow, or reaching for, nocking, and drawing an arrow before a trained warrior could pull a single sword) and/or ignoring real world rules when they are unimportant to the story (no mention of either cutting/binding hair--and I'm sure Tolkien didn't torment himself over which it was either, because it didn't MATTER, dude--without it having a detrimental effect on anyone) definitely equates to deus ex machina, don't you know.

I realize this is a bit of a tough concept for you WiKi, and I'm sorry I've addled--er saddled--you with so much. But I'll cut you some slack and pretend we never had this conversation because I'm nice like that. You can wag on as needed.

quote:
Well, Kulik would have made a better Legolas than Orly, anyway...
Actually I would tend to agree with this line of thought. It's very likely that an effective Legolas would have to be played by an professional athlete first (maybe a dancer?), though it'd have to be narrowed down to one who can act, and one who was beautiful in that surreal way (the tough part). I don't know what Kulik's acting talents are, but the grace would be there. Weird though; looks-wise he reminds me of Orly. []

I guess one would have to consider grace, beauty, acting talent in casting an ME elf, though I don't know in what order they should be ranked. Maybe 1) talent 2) grace 3) beauty. Much can be done with good lighting and makeup in regards to beauty, but the other two are harder to compensate for.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
quote:
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I just figured if you can't handle the concept of shears, then I wouldn't want to confuse you.
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Well, I don't know, WiKi; stranger things have happened. After all, the less convolute concept of merely tying the hair back seems to have thoroughly flummoxed you.

Only because you claimed it was deus ex machina by implying that Legolas could have hair down to his moobs ala Oreo-la.

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You're the one who claimed it HAD to be deus ex machina because they never ran into Conan the Barber-ian.
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Oh, but of course. Tolkien inventing other-world rules by which some characters function (i.e., Legolas walking on top of the the snow, or reaching for, nocking, and drawing an arrow before a trained warrior could pull a single sword) and/or ignoring real world rules when they are unimportant to the story (no mention of either cutting/binding hair--and I'm sure Tolkien didn't torment himself over which it was either, because it didn't MATTER, dude--without it having a detrimental effect on anyone) definitely equates to deus ex machina, don't you know.

Hate to spoil an intersting argument with a single fact, but we were TALKING about ORLY-locks with his fright-wig-- NOT Book-Legolas with his maybe-or-maybe not pigtail. As you so astutely mentioned, this IS the movie-section.
(BTW, the phrase was "bending his bow and fitting an arrow--" no mention of his raising the bow and POINTING it at Éomer, which would have Legolas resembling a porcupine quite quickly since some of the riders already had beads on him).

quote:
I realize this is a bit of a tough concept for you WiKi, and I'm sorry I've addled--er saddled--you with so much. But I'll cut you some slack and pretend we never had this conversation because I'm nice like that. You can wag on as needed.

I'll pass, since I admit my ability to debate straight facts, pales in yours to distort them ad nauseum infinitum.

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Well, Kulik would have made a better Legolas than Orly, anyway...
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Actually I would tend to agree with this line of thought. It's very likely that an effective Legolas would have to be played by an professional athlete first (maybe a dancer?),

We call those STUNTMEN, dear-- they play the character in ADDITION to the main actor.

quote:
though it'd have to be narrowed down to one who can act
I have a saying: "Any actor who does his own stunts, has a fool for a stuntman-- and an IDIOT for a director."

quote:
I guess one would have to consider grace, beauty, acting talent in casting an ME elf, though I don't know in what order they should be ranked. Maybe 1) talent 2) grace 3) beauty. Much can be done with good lighting and makeup in regards to beauty, but the other two are harder to compensate for.
Yes, one can't create those things in a POOF! []

[ 03-22-2008, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

From: Los Angeles, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nahar
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The thing I don't quite understand is that in the movie he actually successfully pulled back the bowstring, whether it's a movie prop or whatever; he pulls the string back swiftly and either aims or releases, but you still have a problem with it?

Of course it is not going to be your class-A archery; he is an actor who had to learn how to shoot a bow for the making of the film (Orlando trained for about two months before filming the scenes). Nonetheless he actually learned how to shoot, and he did shoot the bow many times with little outtakes (I don't think his wig ever got caught or in the way).

The point is, if they actually did it successfully...then why the hell is this bothering you so much? Are you saying that it should not be done, or that it can be only done in Hollywood?

Also, you do realize he learned how to shoot the bow from a professional trainer. []


Pardon my post, but seriously, are you going to go to Star Wars forums starting threads about how their clothing was too baggy to be handling ultra-high energy light-sabers? []

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
The thing I don't quite understand is that in the movie he actually successfully pulled back the bowstring, whether it's a movie prop or whatever; he pulls the string back swiftly and either aims or releases, but you still have a problem with it?

Um.... he's not REALLY hitting a target-- yeah, I didn't realize you had to be a movie-consultant to know that.
So he pulls the string with a prop-bow and a rubber-tipped arrow, it goes "twang..." big deal, so does a guitar-string. Doesn't mean it could hit the broad side of Philippa, or that she'd feel it enough to tip her while she was sleeping.

quote:
Of course it is not going to be your class-A archery;

It's not ANY archery!

quote:
he is an actor who had to learn how to shoot a bow for the making of the film (Orlando trained for about two months before filming the scenes). Nonetheless he actually learned how to shoot, and he did shoot the bow many times with little outtakes (I don't think his wig ever got caught or in the way).

You don't think PERIOD; he never ACTUALLY drew and nocked the arrow while in combat-- it was TRICK PHOTOGRAPHY. He had TIME to flip his wig out of the way-- time you DON'T HAVE in real combat!
Do you know it can sometimes take DAYS to film a single scene?

I do talk to a lot of combat-consultants for movies, and here's a little real-life example, for people who think they can compare real-world combat from movie-fights:

OJ Simpson could successfully slash his wife's throat from behind after some stage-combat instruction; obviously it didn't allow him to do the same to Ron Goldman-- whom it took him 47 stabs and slashes to kill. (And yes, I DID tell this to the prosecution-- you see how well that helped).

Same with Orlegolas; HELLO, IT'S A MOVIE! TRICK PHOTOGRAPHY! PROPS! STAGE COMBAT! HELLO!

quote:
The point is, if they actually did it successfully...then why the hell is this bothering you so much? Are you saying that it should not be done, or that it can be only done in Hollywood?

It just goes to show how PJ was talking out of both sides of his arse about everything he touched regarding LotR.

quote:
Also, you do realize he learned how to shoot the bow from a professional trainer.

I didn't realize the trainer selected the costumes for their practicality, however.

quote:
Pardon my post, but seriously, are you going to go to Star Wars forums starting threads about how their clothing was too baggy to be handling ultra-high energy light-sabers?
No-- because to tell you the truth, I REALLY don't have much experience with that type of weaponry, OR the Force... unlike actual bows and archers.
In fact, I believe Star Wars specifically stated somewhere (I can't find the quote, but it WAS mentioned) that it took place in a distant galaxy-- not our own world, where the author said "miles are miles."

[ 03-23-2008, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Supra
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I dont think his hair would get caught while pulling back the string. Im not an archery expert but once you draw the arrow, dont you place it on the bow with your bow extended at arms length from your body? If this is the case, then his fingers would be around the arrow and string [B]locked tight[/B an arms length away from his hair, which would prevent his hair getting caught when he pulled the string back because there would be no way for his fingers to grab the hair.

If you dont agree with his wild flailing hair, do you think he should have had short hair? braided hair? IMO, the kind of hair Legolas in the movie was given was what people expected of an elf, and i havent heard anyone complain otherwise. But it does show that in all movies, dramatic scenes outweigh logic and reasoning.

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Nahar
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quote:
It's not ANY archery!
Nothing says 'target' in the definition of archery [] : "n. The art, sport, or skill of shooting with a bow and arrow."


quote:
No-- because to tell you the truth, I REALLY don't have much experience with that type of weaponry, OR the Force... unlike actual bows and archers.
Ah, really? I bet you have a couple of Lorien bows in your backyard, strung with Elf hair of course.

And I'm sure you've spoken to many of the elf archers in real life, you know on your last trip to the Halls of Mandos?

quote:
HELLO, IT'S A MOVIE!
Right! Exactly why you shouldn't give two ****s whether the combat is exactly like whatever type of real-world archery (if any) Tolkien based his ideas upon. If they hired pro archers to do all the stunts, you would be complaining about how stupid it was for PJ to use all those doubles! (lack of consistency, doubles don't look like the actors, etc.)

Why can't the actors just train for five or so years and learn how to shoot like a pro? Because they're actors! And the movie would have been offset again. So they trained for a little while, and PJ scrubbed the fight scenes as best he could, which wasn't good enough for some folks, especially the ones who point out more flaws than legitimately possible. (Of course I think it could have been done better, but the whole project could have been, and pointing out this small stuff like hair length vs. archery efficiency that requires extreme prerequisite knowledge is beyond pointless for movies released 6 years ago)


I mean come on WiKi, I think you're beyond the point of practical hatred, you're just hating on PJ in new ways every day out of pure bias and backing it up with your (seldom proved) 'experience in ultra professional cinematography, personal / professional archery, superior historical literacy, superior intellect, first class Tolkien-interpreter, etc')

...

Anyway on the topic of fight scenes HERE I say is a relevant video []

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7fd30xOE-w

[ 03-23-2008, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Nahar ]

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"It is told that when the hosts of the Eldalië departed from Cuiviénen Oromë rode at their head upon Nahar, his white horse shod with gold..."

Tolkien, The Silmarillion, Of The Coming of the Elves

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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Supra:
quote:
dont think his hair would get caught while pulling back the string. Im not an archery expert
Then you should listen to someone who IS:
Archer:
quote:
It's more likely, if we're going to pretend these guys have actual physics, that he would have kept his hair tied back or restrained under a hood, etc. And no, the movie Legolas's "do" would not qualify as being tied back, sorry. The wind can grab at that mess quickly, "superior" elf skill or not (because I doubt he can will his hair not to fly about in the wind) and yank it right off on release. I've pulled out clumps of my own hair that way, trying to be cool with my hair poetically blowing in the breeze.
It's common knowledge (among people with any knowledge of the subject, i.e. not PJ) that archers would cut TRADITIONALLY or tie their hair to avoid it getting in the way of the bowstring-- which would be RIGHT in front of Orly's right moob, there along with his frilly tassle.

quote:
Ah, really? I bet you have a couple of Lorien bows in your backyard, strung with Elf hair of course.

And I'm sure you've spoken to many of the elf archers in real life, you know on your last trip to the Halls of Mandos?

Non sequitur... as usual.


quote:
quote:
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HELLO, IT'S A MOVIE!
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Right! Exactly why you shouldn't give two ****s whether the combat is exactly like whatever type of real-world archery (if any) Tolkien based his ideas upon.

Then we're in agreement-- it's not Tolkien.
Case closed.

quote:
Why can't the actors just train for five or so years and learn how to shoot like a pro?
We're talking about direction and production, and separates a good movie from a bad one. It's clear I know, and you don't.

quote:
mean come on WiKi, I think you're beyond the point of practical hatred, you're just hating on PJ in new ways every day out of pure bias and backing it up with your (seldom proved) 'experience in ultra professional cinematography, personal / professional archery, superior historical literacy, superior intellect, first class Tolkien-interpreter, etc')

Sure, these subjects aren't related in ANY way.

It's clear that YOU'RE the one engaging in personal hatred since you lack the mental means to form a comprehensive argument-- standard movie-phile modus operandi, and you're proving your lack of experience with movies, lack of experience with the subject, historical illiteracy, inferior intellect, and Tolkien know-nothing.

quote:
Anyway on the topic of fight scenes HERE I say is a relevant
video

Sure, and a Tiger Woods commercial is relevant to golfing-- you movie-philes are priceless... but you pay my rent, I should be grateful.

[ 03-23-2008, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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Good find on the link, Nahar. They really tried hard to do things well when making these movies. It is clear their hearts were in it. It just brings home to me the idea, again, that if they had a more faithful screenplay and had a director that understood the source material and the motivations of the characters, these little nitpicky things like hair length and how stuff looked wouldn't matter.

But with so much of the screenplay being non-Tolkien stuff made up on the fly by Jackson/Boyens/Walsh, and the characters' motivations often running counter to those in Tolkien's source material, the project was tainted at the head and so of course the entire body appears ill as a result. Trickle-down suckage.

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Nahar
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quote:
It's clear that YOU'RE the one engaging in personal hatred since you lack the mental means to form a comprehensive argument-- standard movie-phile modus operandi, and you're proving your lack of experience with movies, lack of experience with the subject, historical illiteracy, inferior intellect, and Tolkien know-nothing.

Hate? Why I love you, WiKi! You bring the spice to the boards with your outlandish / elitist comments. Without your absurdly specific rants I would have nothing to fire back at. []

Anywho, I admit I strayed off topic. But let me offer this: can you provide any evidence other than your own beliefs that long hair is a significant hindrance to professional archers?

My revised argument is this: Although it is not necessarily practical to engage in frequent combat as a human archer with strands of hair that could be in the way of the bowstring, the sheer expertise and human-superior design of a Tolkien elf is enough to provide unaccounted-for variables in the statement that Legolas or any other elf would be hindered by his/her long, untied hair.

Support?

-Immortal archer-elves are able to practice archery for centuries longer than the greatest human archers ever to exist. Therefore, the precision involved will probably be many times greater than the most skilled human, and thus all annoyances or inconveniences may not apply to elves.

-It is unclear what the makeup of elf hair constitutes. It may even be more fine than human hair, making it less of a problem in getting caught. Perhaps it gives way easier and is more easily adjusted out of the way, requiring nothing more than a shake of the head.

-It is still possible to shoot a bow and arrow with accuracy and long hair / things in the way of the string. This image is from an archery competition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Brazilarcher.jpg (notice the hair pushed back from his hand).

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"It is told that when the hosts of the Eldalië departed from Cuiviénen Oromë rode at their head upon Nahar, his white horse shod with gold..."

Tolkien, The Silmarillion, Of The Coming of the Elves

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
Hate? Why I love you, WiKi! You bring the spice to the boards with your outlandish / elitist comments. Without your absurdly specific rants I would have nothing to fire back at
I don't think this absurd; with Machine-gun Leggy firing arrows faster than in the movie "Hawk, the Slayer" (literally showing a ridiculous trick-photography Elf shooting about 5 arrows per second) then it's not a question of nit-picking.
The point is that their hair is going to get in way more than if they cut it short or tied it back; however there was no mention of him having long hair (or golden hair) while all the other characers with long or golden hair were mentioned specifically.

Case in point:

quote:
It is still possible to shoot a bow and arrow with accuracy and long hair / things in the way of the string. This image is from an archery competition: (notice the hair pushed back from his hand).

 -

Ok, some obvious points:
1) he's got a headband,
2) his hair is tied in back with feathers,
3) that's not his hair he's pushing back, it's his frilly black shoulder-thing (just like he has on the LEFT shoulder), and
4) The target's not fighting back or even moving.

Meanwhile, Legolas was always shooting charging wolves, orcs, Nazgûl etc-- the only stationary target he even considered was Éomer.

[ 03-24-2008, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Wetwang
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Well it would appear that the Assyrians had no trouble using a bow whilst having long hair AND beards! []
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Keep the earth under your feet, & clay on your fingers; wisdom in your bones, & have both eyes open!
That's Mr Wang™ to you!
This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun.

This bog is thick and easy...

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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Neither did the men of Rohan-- with helmets and braids on.
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Galin
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quote:
The point is that their hair is going to get in way more than if they cut it short or tied it back; however there was no mention of him having long hair (or golden hair) while all the other characers with long or golden hair were mentioned specifically.
No mention of long hair for Legolas... and no mention of short hair either.

[ 03-24-2008, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Then again, if I think of the battle of Hastings, I can think of Saxons, who seemed to have long hair but no archers to speak of and the Normans who had short hair and many archers, and the archery made the difference.
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
No mention of long hair for Legolas... and no mention of short hair either.

But others did have mention of it.
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Galin
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quote:
But others did have mention of it.
Which means?
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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If someone had long hair it got mentioned.

Therefore if it wasn't mentioned, then they didn't have it-- that's called a "logical contrapositive."

[ 03-25-2008, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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So Legolas had relatively short, dark hair, right?
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Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Lord of the Rings » Long-haired Legolas? (Page 2)
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