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Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Lord of the Rings » Could it be (re-)done again? (Page 2)
Author Topic: Could it be (re-)done again?
Prince Imrahil
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quote:
I doubt one in a hundred people would recognize just his voice
Not only could one in a hundred recognize his voice, probably that many (if not more) could do a credible impression of Mr. Walken.

quote:
No you're guilty of rank insolence, not to mention foot-in-mouth disease. If you care to read my original post in its entirety (which I know you haven't), I billed him as "SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY."

Also you don't know much about Alzheimer's, since the most familiar and practiced things are remembered best-- and Heston's been an actor most of his life; also things can be remembered with effort. And have you ever heard of an "understudy?"

My grandmother has Alzheimer's, and she thinks that I am her son, my sister is her daughter, and she lives in a place that she hasn't lived in in nearly half a century. If you really think someone with Alzheimer's is capable of playing someone like Denethor (no matter how great their resume is), you have no concept of how the disease affects people and their capabilities. I do.

quote:
As for PJ's music, however, I think it was fairly uninspired and repetitive-- and Enya was at her absolute WORST, compared to previous work. I think that, like most things, PJ skimped on the music ...
I couldn't disagree with this more. I was listening to a part of the music that plays when Eowyn took down the Oliphant and it sent chills down my spine, as does the music that plays over the lighting of the beacons. Though neither of these events happened in the book (per se) the music in the films played perfectly with the visuals at just the right times. The way he works chord progressions and turn-arounds is better than I've heard in any other film I can think of. Also, it's not PJ's music, it's Howard Shore's.

***If you want to hear one of the pieces I was talking about (without seeing the film), go here and play the video (there's a pause in the music after the first part and that's what I'm talking about):
web page ***


I would take some issue with John Williams doing the music. Though he is great at what he does, his music tends to get a bit frantic when the action of a movie picks up. I find that quite distracting. It's almost as if he's just trying to be gratuitously loud. The lack of that is part of what made the music so great.

[ 11-25-2006, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Prince Imrahil ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

-Minas Tirith

From: Dor-En-Ernil, Belfalas (by way of VA) | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thingol of Doriath
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quote:
Sauron is black!
Yes, I know... but black and burnt is hardly the same thing as African American. But I said that I would accept it, but what about the fact that Mr Jones is quite rotund?

quote:
And what type of accent do you think Treebeard would have?
Not Scottish... the deep, base voice yes. But having Treebeard speak with a Scottish dialect would be like having Thranduil speak with a german accent. []

quote:
Gandalf only "tall" in comparison to Dwarves and Hobbits;
Or... He's only short in comparison to two Eldar. []

quote:
Which is why they're good choices. Why do you think people pay good money to see the same actors over and over?
That's the first objective-- it's called show business; and I never argue with success... even PJ's. I just think it can be done better.

Eh... it just seems that you've chosen the most typecast actors as possible. But that's just me... to each his own. []
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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I get the feeling that some people shouldn't quit their day-jobs, if all they know how to say is "all wrong" and "typecast."
I guess it's my fault for doing this in the movie-forum.... moving to Lit.

quote:
I couldn't disagree with this more. I was listening to a part of the music that plays when Eowyn took down the Oliphant and it sent chills down my spine,
Ok, that's it. I'm SO outta here.
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Glóin the Dark
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I prefer Howard Shore to John Williams.

As for his The Lord of the Rings score, some of its themes (the "Shire" music in particular) are too far down the sentimental road for my liking, but that is par for the course in film music (and, indeed, John Williams produces more than his fair share of saccharine-doused material). And I don't know of any other film score which contains such an elaborate and complex network of themes and motives (if anyone knows of one, I'd be quite interested to hear of it). I'm not, of course, talking about complexity or development of Beethovenian (or Mahlerian, or Boulezian, etc) proportions, but within the realm of film music I know of nothing comparable.

And as for Enya, her regrettable role in the score lasts for less than six minutes (out of more than nine hours of music), and more than half of it occurs during the credits rather than the real film.

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Prince Imrahil
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quote:
Ok, that's it. I'm SO outta here.
Didn't know I had that much power over someone. [] [] [] Also, what Gloin said (especially about Enya).

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

-Minas Tirith

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Gondoran74
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I think you are dead on about Connery as Treebeard. I definitely hear his voice when reading the books though I'm having a hard time trying to think of the movie (from many years back) where I thought his Scottish brogue was ideal for the role.
Russell Crowe as Boromir is an interesting idea. He's would have the heroic warrior down but as far as the arrogant and tragic sides of Boromirs personality its just that I can't see it. That or I just think Sean Bean did about the best portrayal that anyone could do and whenever I try to put anyone else in that role his portrayal keeps popping in.

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Amárië
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quote:
As for Scorcese, you didn't see "Apocolypse Now"?
Um...Francis Ford Coppolla directed "Apocalypse Now."

[]

quote:
Director: Martin Scorcese
Aragorn: Liam Neeson
Gandalf: Anthony Hopkins
Boromir: Russel Crowe
Denethor: Charlton Heston
Treebeard: Sean Connery
Sauron: James Earl Jones
Elves: various talented actors who are CGI'ed over
Musical director and composer: John Williams (success)

Can't say I'm bowled over by your choices of actors.

Liam Neeson is completely wrong for Aragorn, at least as I see the character. I also can't see Aragorn with a Ballymena accent. Anthony Hopkins as Gandalf? He'd be rubbish. How about keep Ian McKellen and just give him a decent script? James Earl Jones seems like a type cast to me.

I'd like to see Alan Rickman as Denethor - I think he'd be an interesting choice. Possibly Mark Wahlberg as Faramir. I'll think on this. Interesting idea.

[ 12-31-2006, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

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Faramir Ranger Captain
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Charlton Heston with a British accent.... [] I don't know why I can't imagine that without laughing. And I wouldn't dream of changing Gandalfs.
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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The most legendary casting-choices have often received reviews like these-- naturally the average eye isn't going to spot the inner characteristics that would make for a proper match.

Such as the following:

quote:
I'd like to see Alan Rickman as Denethor - I think he'd be an interesting choice. Possibly Mark Wahlberg as Faramir.
No offense, but these are typical Hollywood choices that, like PJ, indicate a complete lack of proper understanding of the characters themselves. This is why I regret posting in the movie-section, since I'm getting popcorn-picks and soda-pop criticisms by movie-philes, which thus inevitably lack any in-depth understanding of acting or character:

quote:
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older.
...
'Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore.

Faramir, though he was much like his brother in looks, was a man less self-regarding, both sterner and wiser. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn.

Denethor was NOT a clone of Professor Snape, and Wahlberg has all the talent of a Keaneu Reeves, while both are lacking even the necessary look as well (which is less important than ability, but still described quite accurately in the story). Neither one could make the characters look great and noble as the book requires... however they're about as good as PJ's picks, like a king who gets "crowned" by the queen etc.

[ 01-01-2007, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Roll of Honor Athene
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Yep, the average eye isn't going to see the merit in your choices, 'cos of course they're not professional film buffs like you.

Professional film buffs who don't know who directed Apocalyse Now. Er...
[]

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Roll of Honor Snowman of Forochel
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I don't think it will be redone again, at least not in our lifetime. According to the IMDB top 250 films of all time, this is how it stacks up:

1. 9.1 The Godfather (1972) 187,063
2. 9.1 The Shawshank Redemption (1994) 225,519
3. 8.9 The Godfather: Part II (1974) 105,771
4. 8.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) 170,046
5. 8.8 Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, Il (1966) 52,061
6. 8.8 Casablanca (1942) 90,555
7. 8.8 Schindler's List (1993) 134,372
8. 8.7 Pulp Fiction (1994) 192,073
9. 8.7 Shichinin no samurai (1954) 49,021
10. 8.7 Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 143,802
11. 8.7 Star Wars (1977) 180,769
12. 8.7 One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975) 97,558
13. 8.7 Rear Window (1954) 57,482
14. 8.7 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001) 212,320
15. 8.6 12 Angry Men (1957) 43,495
16. 8.6 Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981) 123,986
17. 8.6 The Usual Suspects (1995) 141,065
18. 8.6 Cidade de Deus (2002) 54,611
19. 8.6 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964) 86,666
20. 8.6 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) 167,923

Movies like this, that were loved by millions all over the world, including the vast majority of critics, and people from all walks of life, and also made tons of money, just don't get redone because there is no need for it.

I know you can't stomach this, WK, but to most this was the definitive movie versions of LOTR, and there is no need to redo them. All the people want now is for THE HOBBIT to be filmed, hopefully by Peter Jackson, and then it will be complete. I'm willing to bet you'll never see LOTR redone, just like you'll never see STAR WARS,or THE GODFATHER redone.

LOTR is headed for classicville, and you can't stop it WK, you just can't stop it.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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This proves my argument, since it shows that there's a MARKET for LotR. Since PJ distorted it so badly, there should be an even greater market for a FAITHFUL version.

This was always my argument-- if you care to go back to the beginning and read it, I cleary stated:

quote:
The fact that PJ was able to reap a "ten-bagger" from his mediocre faith to the story, shows that there's definitely a great market for it-- the only question in the minds of investors, is whether today's audience will go for a more classic film. I think that they would, if it was properly edited.

I think a version that respected the audience rather than pandered, condescended, dumbed-down, and insulted their intelligence with a lot of hoopla and cheap cheesy clichés, would definitely set new records.

You might think that a modern audience would scoff at this as passé, however I think the opposite: i.e. that they would embrace these long-lost values as exactly what's missing from modern society as epitomized by these crude modern films: courage, duty, honor, chivalry, chastity and above all FELLOWSHIP led by wisdom, and faith in a higher power.

Therefore again, I think a faithful re-make would earn more money than PJ's hackery, which is now 2nd to Harry Potter.
The fact that YOU think it's the greatest movie ever made, only shows your poor taste and low standards. However it's NEVER going to be considered a classic-- it's simply not classic material by anything but adolescent and blue-collar standards. The IMDB only counts awards, saying nothing about critical reviews.

[ 01-01-2007, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Amárië
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Sorry, Wiki, you're just too much for me.

First of all, I am not a moviephile. I don't think you'll find one post by me in any of the moviephile threads, so that accusation is a bit moot.

Secondly, I hardly think the actors you chose are stellar, out of this world actors. I mean, for God's sake, Russell Crowe? Can't stand the man, and he's every bit the "hollywood" actor any of the ones I chose are.

Secondly, I don't give a damn about Rickman as Snape. I was thinking of him more in the movies Love Actually, Sense and Sensibility or Michael Collins. If he could pull off a convincing De Valera, he could pull of Denethor.

But of course, I'm not a movie buff.

Even though I did know who directed Apocalypse Now. []

*waits to be insulted by an emotional three year old*

[ 01-01-2007, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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I never said I was addressing you specifically as a movie-phile; however those choices you named, show (in my opinion, at least) a distinct lack of undertanding of the characters-- which is typical of PJ.

Either PJ, or his side-kicks Curly and Moe, either didn't understand the characters-- or didn't want to, instead flattering themselves by second-guessing Tolkien about his own book (e.g. first making Arwen into Xena then Sleeping Beauty-- "it's FILM, you know").

Maybe you didn't make these choices for the same reasons, but neither did you explain them. In either case, I supplied book-quotes for both characters in defense of my assertions; and you still haven't taken issue with those to indicate how your actor-choicess would personify such.

[ 01-01-2007, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
Professional film buffs who don't know who directed Apocalyse Now. Er...
If you must know, I was distracted by recalling #1 and #2 top-rated films by leading movie critics and film-makers, and the respective names of their directors. It's quite an honest mistake; but as the eternal phrase goes, "If I knew you wanted to get anal, I would have brought a condom." []

[ 01-01-2007, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Gondoran74
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Another choice for Aragorn which I wouldn't have thought of until someone suggested it and that was Daniel Day Lewis. Who I believe is closer in looks to the Book Aragorn the more I think of it.Lewis is a great actor and once he read the LOTR he would be dead on with his characterization. Of course with PJ and his crew in charge it probably wouldn't help.
The only other issue is that the bigger stars also come with bigger personalities and some would put their spin on their character.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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I don't think that's true of big-name actors at all, unless you cast for popularity-- for example using a one-note actor like Tom Cruise, will naturally get you a one-note performance. However I'd look more for depth as well.

DDL is a definite possibility, since he has good range; however I don't know if he has the depth to pull off portraying someone of Aragorn's hidden power and complexity. Viggo certainly didn't (which was just fine, since movie-Aragorn didn't have any power to speak of).

I would use the "Black Stone" test, where you'd have to believe that he could both appear ordinary and raucous, but also be possessed of such a power that "even the shades of men are obedient to his will" when he reveals it fully-- or who can exercise the will and authority to wrench the palantír from the mind of Sauron (meanwhile Viggo just sits there gloating, when in the book the experience has him drained, drawn and haggard-looking).
All that is gold does not glitter, but you can't polish a turd.

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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Lewis would be a good choice for any of the men of western descent: Aragorn, Faramir, or Boromir.

As for Denethor, the guy they had, John Noble, probably would have been fine with better direction and screenplay to work with. The hair, the slouch, the slovenly pigging out all added to his failure as a character. He probably could have pulled off the look if he had the proper support in place.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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I agree to some extent, since the same goes for the entire movie.

You've got to remember that they cast Denethor to degrade him from the perception that he was nothing but a pig-headed fool-- this was clear from the get-go, when Gandalf says that he "occupies the office of the king, but he is not a king."

Clearly this was an idiotic distortion of what Gandalf actually meant, when he said "Théoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king." PJ obviously missed the rest of what Gandalf said:

"‘He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."

So PJ took to mean that Denethor was just a stand-in doofus who was ruling out of his league, letting Boromir do all the fighting; when Tolkien's obvious intent was the opposite-- i.e. that while Denethor was not a king, he was still nevertheless far more powerful than Théoden who was a king.

I don't think John Noble even had the proper look of Denethor:

quote:
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older....

Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil [Aragorn] as to one of nearest kin.....

Pippin saw his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose between the dark deep eyes; and he was reminded not so much of Boromir as of Aragorn.

Thus it's clear that even the casting was intended to degrade the character, since he didn't look at thing like this.

[ 01-01-2007, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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A lot of that is makeup and costuming, though. You can make just about any actor with decent height fit the description Denethor if you try. And that's the key phrase, "if you try" because it is pretty clear that they didn't.

Denethor wasn't the biggest casting mistake, if it was a mistake at all. The worst casting of a major character, IMO, was Aragorn.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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I think it was Arwen, hands-down, and most purists agree. But you're right in that Aragorn's a close second.
As for Boromir, I think he was definitely mis-cast; if anything Bean should have played Aragorn.

And I don't necessarily agree with make-up and costuming, since they simply enhance an actor's natural attributes-- if you started with someone who looked kingly and noble, you could make them look even more kingly and noble with the same make-up. You can't make Drew Carey into Carey Grant or Carey Elwes.

Compare the following possibilities:

 -  -

"Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore."

I think Heston better looks the part described here.

Same with Aragorn; I'm sure they tried to make Viggy look kingly and noble; but again seeing that scrawny geek plod around the riders of Rohan, just left me wondering "he's the king of WHAT?"

"All that is gold does not glitter,
but you can't polish a turd."

[ 01-01-2007, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Mithrennaith
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Well, I've kept out of this for over a year now, because I do not much enjoy the tone of the music on this particular patch of forum, but I can no longer refrain from nailing my colours to the mast on this.

Snow Wizard wrote:
quote:
I know you can't stomach this, WK, but to most this was the definitive movie versions of LOTR, and there is no need to redo them.
Now that record is at least as broken as the one WiKi keeps playing.

The statement may be true for those who came to the movies as to any other movie hype, without particular knowledge of the books. I'm not sure though, but I don't know one way or the other.

It is not true however for those that read the books thoroughly beforehand and where drawn by them to read more of Tolkien's Middle-earth material. They are probably a minority, but a sizeable one. To them, the movies did not just deviate more from the books than they found acceptable, more namely than could be justified by the needs of the medium. They simply did not do the books justice, for they did not do justice to Tolkien's mythological, I think one should even say mythopoetical, perspective on the world in which he set them.

Let me make it quite clear. I do not hate the movies. I quite enjoyed watching them. But I do not feel the need to watch them again at regular intervals, nor to go back and watch bits of them when I read discussions about them (which I could do quite easily, having several DVD versions), whereas I do go back to the books and read bits of them again quite frequently, prompted by a discussion of some aspect of them.

I was thrilled that they got so many Oscars, but I do not think they are masterpieces. Note that, apart from one 'best movie', they did not get any of the main categories of directing and acting. Now, I am not a great cinema-goer, nor am I a "professional movie buff" (whatever that might mean; I'm tempted to say in the Professor's words that in this forum it 'has merely become an emotional dose for generating heat'), so I need to find some other way to describe my reasons for saying this.

Let me put it this way: Christmas 2001, after having watched FotR three times in the cinema (for free, would you believe it!), I saw 'Gone with the Wind' on TV. It was the first time I saw it (never having read the book either), and I didn't even see all of it, because of familial duties. I saw about half an hour at the start and three quarters of an hour at the end, but even thus mangled, I was struck as to how much more (and how much more sophisticatedly) that movie appealed to my emotions, and moreover to my appreciation of a story well told, than FotR. That realisation, by which I was quite surprised at the time, has stayed with me.

Peter Jackson is very good at visual dramatics - at making a movie look great and fantastic (or, as in the case of Braindead, truly horrific and over the top - intentionally). If that was all there was to moviemaking, Jackson would indeed be one of the greatest. I went on record saying that it was 'as if someone threw a bucketful of diamonds over you'. But that also indicates that I felt there was an element of overkill. And where the price for that is paid, where Jackson is not so good at, is psychological dramatics, and the art of character development by storytelling.

That is particulary regrettable, as in Tolkien's these aspects are not readily discernible for the modern reader. They are told in a much older way of using language, belonging very much to ancient traditions of mythological epic which Tolkien was basing himself on. As a result, psychological and character developments in LotR are not recognised by all professional critics, or professional translators, so no wonder they have escaped some professional scriptwriters.

So that is why I think there is indeed room for improvement, and that it certainly could be done again. But even if a majority view is that there is no(t much) room for improvement; how many times has Frankenstein been filmed, how many times Dracula? How many times even 'The picture of Dorian Grey'? They have all become classical subjects of storytelling in the cinematic medium. Well, so has LotR, certainly after Peter Jackson had a go at it. There will allways be, after a longer or shorter interval, directors who will want to have a go at them, and backers wanting to finance them. Although they may not be discerning enough to back the right horses.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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It's also rather conformist (not to mention sheep-like) to suggest that movies should be done by poll-- as if the average movie-goer knows what is going to be good, before it's even made. That's where Adam Sandler movies come from.

But this goes much farther than that, in that those who don't read-- let alone undertand-- the books, certainly wouldn't even have the means to know what's "definitive," and whether a re-make could be infinitely better. You can't have a cheap classic, no matter how much you spend on it.

[ 01-02-2007, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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I knew you couldn't stomach it. []

Mithrennaith - Nice post. It's good to see a post that can critisize the movie in a positive way, without calling PJ an idiot, and the movie lovers ignorant. []

However, I still think you're looking at things from a hardcore Tolkien fan's kind of view, whereas I'm looking at it from the general public's view. When movies are this successful, are so loved by so many, even the vast majority of movie critics, I just can't see them being remade, at least not for a long, long time. The regular non Tolkien fan out there is going to think it's crazy to remake something they liked a hell of a lot, and I really don't think they'll want to spend their hard earned cash on it. And let's face it, movies are about making money. The only shot at having it remade might be by some indie company, and I doubt it would make much. Only hardcore Tolkien fans would go to see it. It would not have the financial backing to have the special effects needed for a movie such as this, and it would just not catch the eye of the average moviegoer.

I think PJ did the best he could at making his trilogy look good through excellent special effects, and at the same time have a very good story, and acting. Something that is not very easy to do. LOTR blows away STAR WARS as far as I'm concerned in that department.

[ 01-02-2007, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Snow Wizard ]

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Yet in a generation of movie-goers, just a couple decades, the majority of people in the target demographic will NOT have seen the Jackson movies. I, for example, am in my late 30s. I have seen more movies from the 80s, when I was in my teens and early 20s, than I have films from the 70s or 60s or on the other end, the 90s.

If you think 20 years from now most 15 to 25 year old movie-goers will have seen Jackson's movies, I think you're mistaken. In fact, in 20 years few people under 35 will have seen the films.

There is plenty of time for a remake or even two in my lifetime, assuming I can hang on into my 80s.

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