Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  ...  51  52  53 
Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Lord of the Rings » Purist Rage - How the Films Betrayed Tolkien's Legacy (Page 1)
Author Topic: Purist Rage - How the Films Betrayed Tolkien's Legacy
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

posted      Profile for White Gold Wielder   Author's Homepage   Email White Gold Wielder   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
If anyone posts anything about how we should just enjoy the films for what they are, the post will be deleted. This isn't about swallowing these films and smiling. It isn't about a fair, balanced, and level-headed assessment of films as a whole. It's about venting your rage, pure and simple. I know I am not alone.

I just started watching my TT:EE Appendices and I have come to a startling revelation.

I have the instinctual desire to punch Philippa Boyens in the face.

Just as Treebeard and Pippen could smell Wormtongue for the liar he was, there is an air about Philippa that sets my spider-senses tingling. She comes off as smug and completely lacking humility and when she tells me why she changed portions of the story in her condescending tone, I long to push her face in.

I am aware that this may seem undignified and perhaps un-Gandalf-like, but I disagree. I am a big fan of unashamedly having feelings when these are not acted upon but perhaps talked about instead. We all have feelings and fleeting thoughts, some good and some bad. For instance, I don’t consider thinking about infidelity to be a crime. We must all think about things even if it is only to deny them. To play mental games and not “allow” yourself to think certain thoughts is not healthy. An unexamined life is a poor one. Anyway, I’m sure Treebeard himself thought about breaking his root off in Wormtounge’s arse, if even only for a delightful moment. And Treebeard wouldn’t think twice about popping an Orc.

No time to finish this rant now, but perhaps others would like to talk about their occasional skull-splitting anger over what has been done to Tolkien's masterpiece.

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Laurenendôrian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 106

posted      Profile for The Laurenendôrian   Email The Laurenendôrian   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
And if anyone posts anything about how we should just enjoy the films for what they are, the post will be deleted. This isn't about swallowing these films and smiling. It isn't about a fair, balanced, and level-headed assessment of films as a whole. It's about venting your rage, pure and simple. I know I am not alone.
[]

---

I don't have the EE of TT, so haven't been able to watch the appendices, but there are some scenes in the films that give me the feeling of wanting to hurt someone.

[ 12-08-2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: The Laurenendôrian ]

From: Taruithorn | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

posted      Profile for Curufin the Crafty   Author's Homepage   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I must admit that Nerdanel almost had to hold me down from leaving the theater in the "Window on the West" scene. I was irate. Furious. Almost maddened by anger. To take one of Tolkien's characters and mangle them in such a way to make them completely unrecognizable by a reader of the book - and how on earth are they ever going to make the third movie work in respect to Faramir? It's an outrage!
From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

posted      Profile for White Gold Wielder   Author's Homepage   Email White Gold Wielder   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I have the nagging feeling that I won't feel the euphoria every critic seems to feel after RotK. I have had to really try hard to enjoy these films, and TT was hardest of all. I just know I'm going to be sitting there like Bruce Banner who has just been smacked in the face as the RotK credits roll. []

Also, I apologize for starting a new thread on this when there were obviously so many before me. I hope to keep the movie-philes out of this one so we can wallow undisturbed in our glass-chewing agony. []

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor EowynatHeart
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3437

posted      Profile for EowynatHeart   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well since we can vent here []

I waited in line an hour to see TT and push may way to the front too get a good seat. I gave people death looks if they even thought about talking during this movie and God help the talking teenager that sat down in front of me. Needless to say I "accidently" kicked alot of seats in the back before the movie was over []

At the end of the movie I just sat there and was like []

Whathe?

I cussed all the way home! I guess the one thing that made me the most angry was Faramir. Why? Just why?

I had so wanted to see the Ents. That was my most anticipated moment and then I felt very let down. It just wasn't what I had expected.

To be honest. TT origianl movie version SUCKED!

I haven't watched all of the TT Appendices yet, so I don't know what you are talking about WGW.

Pray for the Return of the King!!!!!

From: Wait! The map was upside down!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

posted      Profile for Curufin the Crafty   Author's Homepage   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I agree. While I have loved the movies, I have to admit that since I have read the books it has been a good deal harder. When I got out of TTT I was not "blown away" like I was after FotR. I liked it, but there were too many things that were just wrong!

[RANT]What the hell were with those stupid wargs and Aragorn falling off the cliff? Could't they just have cut that stupid scene that served absolutely no purpose whatsoever and done the Faramir scenes right?[/RANT]

I had to see TTT two or three times before I came close to enjoying it as much as I did with Fellowship. I had to get past the point where I was comparing every moment, to where I knew what was coming, and knew where to take my bathroom breaks to lessen the pain. :-)

I think, honestly, this is why I am so much a proponent of the "you can't compare them" philosophy --(which I am NOT going into here, so please don't delete my post!) It's the only thing that can control my rage. I feel it too - I hate what they've done to parts of the movie! But it's only by not comparing that I am able to enjoy both. And I really find myself wanting to enjoy both, because on a purely technical basis, the movies are beautiful things. I just wish that Peter Jackson could have done an original work of such scale and magnitude, so it could be enjoyed without my purist self attacking it!

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Laurenendôrian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 106

posted      Profile for The Laurenendôrian   Email The Laurenendôrian   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
those stupid wargs
Do you mean the hyenas?
From: Taruithorn | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor EowynatHeart
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3437

posted      Profile for EowynatHeart   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Curufin, I never did contect with TTT original. I saw The Fellowhip 5 times at the thearter and only saw TTT twice. I just didn't like it. I really didn't enjoy watching it until EE came out but that is just because he added all the scenes that made all the orginial stupid scenes make some kinda of meaning!!!!

OOHhhhhh don't even get me started on them Wargs and Aragorn. I think I actually came out of my seat and said "What the heck!"

The whole journey to Helms Deep was terrible. Poor Háma getting eat by a Warg []

From: Wait! The map was upside down!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Archer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3857

posted      Profile for Archer   Email Archer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
And if anyone posts anything about how we should just enjoy the films for what they are, the post will be deleted. This isn't about swallowing these films and smiling. It isn't about a fair, balanced, and level-headed assessment of films as a whole. It's about venting your rage, pure and simple. I know I am not alone.
*stands and applauds heartily*

Thank you White Gold Wielder!

[ 12-08-2003, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Archer ]

Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The ever young
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 3579
posted      Profile for The ever young   Email The ever young   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Like everyone that's read the books I ahte what they did to Faramir. I watch the first two films then read all 3 books. I didnt really like Faramir when I saw the films but then I read the books and fell in love with him.then re-watching the film hardly any of the faramir-ness that I loved was in the film. The DVD does improve this and I'm hopeing Return will do more.

I hate film people that get annoyed with people for not likeing changes. We get that things have to be changed but for god sake changing one mans complete charaters is just taking it a little bit too far

From: The Valinor | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Maia Olorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2354
posted      Profile for Maia Olorin   Email Maia Olorin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
In some interviews I've seen with Jackson, he comes across as a little arrogant, and in defending the changes he's made, he falls back on 'well, we're fans too, but we did it for the sake of the movies.' I don't buy it, entirely. There definitely are egos at play here. He's also stated that 'these movies are for the fans' but I don't think he's taken the fans' opinions into account all that much. Oh, we may have stopped him from sending Arwen to Helm's Deep, but I think that's about it. I managed to avoid getting my knickers in a twist about all of this until I read that he'd cut Saruman out of RotK. That made me angry, and I was thinking of not going to RotK.

I really didn't like the warg scene with Aragorn. I still don't. The warg attack, otoh, is a perfectly valid scene to add, as it is mentioned in the book.

I can understand the changes to Faramir's character, although I think PJ wasted the 'Window on the West' scene. I mean, all you see, really, is Frodo and Sam being interrogated by Faramir, with the waterfall in the background.

Still, the only things I am really annoyed at are Aragorn going over the cliff and PJ's leaving the 'Voice of Saruman' on the cutting room floor..especially in view of the time he wastes on stroking his ego with his fan-fic additions.

Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CRAM it
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3224

posted      Profile for CRAM it   Email CRAM it   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I have the instinctual desire to punch Philippa Boyens in the face.

[]

Whenever she says that her Aragorn is a much more complex character than the book's version, I just want to... []

Anyways, glad to hear that I'm not the only one that would like to smack her in the head once in a while.

From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor EowynatHeart
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3437

posted      Profile for EowynatHeart   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Whenever she says that her Aragorn is a much more complex character than the book's version,
She said that!!!!!!!!

Who do these people think they are?????
Now I take back all the nice things that I said about TTT:EE!

From: Wait! The map was upside down!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Archer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3857

posted      Profile for Archer   Email Archer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't seen TTT or any of the EE features, so I can't speak to how Philippa Boyens's demeanor comes across. But I have read a score of her interviews, and each time I can't believe how casual she is in blurting things out about how this scene in the book had no direction or that character in general had no personality! Argh, I want to smack her thick head for these arrogant mindless ravings and tell her to go back and read the book again, and this time--pay attention!! She turned Aragorn into a wimpy, angst-ridden, faithless "hero," which is hard to watch, because all of the mythic, "Lost King" Arthurian quality has been taken from him, and turned into some lame, modern cliche. The thing that bothers me most about this is that Boyens insists that his very "mythicness" in the books is what makes him "featureless" and boring. She doesn't see how skillfully he was put together by Tolkien, and that it is his Arthurian quality that makes him such a sad, evocative, and grim yet noble hero, without the phony tail-between-the-legs angst to stupidly try to convey a "modern," darker side.

However I have to say my biggest injury came very early on in these films when Frodo proved to be an utterly helpless, squealing, gaping, frightened child in need of constant rescuing. Frodo's bravery and mature, solemn, and introspective nature are turned into an absurdly giggling idiot at Bilbo's party, and a shameless coward who was the first to drop his sword and run like a girl on Weathertop. (And he can't even manage it because he stumbles all over his two left feet--like he does over and over in these films. Sheesh! Hobbits were anything but this clumsy as Tolkien wrote them!) In the book, the scene at Weathertop, like the scene at the Ford of Bruinen, are extremely telling about the nature of Frodo's true character. In both places he stands his ground very defiantly--even though he is nearly frozen with fear. He fights bravely to defend himself on Weathertop when the other hobbits crumble around him, and at the Ford, gravely ill and wounded, and in immeasurable pain, he defies the Black Riders even up to his last conscious breath. These incredible acts demonstrate why Elrond and Gandalf feels Frodo is a good choice as the ring-bearer, because he held out against the powers of Morder even when strong men would have failed. That these things are completely removed in the films--not just removed but compeltely inverted to make Frodo as helpless, weak, and in need of constant resucing as possible--severely corrupts one of the most poignant element in the books: Frodo's journey from being a strong, wise, and self-sufficient hobbit, to a person at the ends of the books who is irrevocably injured by the terrible force of the ring. He becomes a true sacrificial hero, because we know he has lost so much.

Tolkien "niggled" for years to get all the details of his characters just right. Boyens/PJ et al. should have at least given the book another read in awareness of that--they might at least have been able to to get some things straight about its beautifully crafted characters and scenes before mangling some of them beyond recognition.

[ 12-08-2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Archer ]

Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

posted      Profile for White Gold Wielder   Author's Homepage   Email White Gold Wielder   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
The thing that real fans understand is the subtlety in Tolkien's work. Readers get more out of each reading.

Subtlety is seriously lacking in the films. Everything is dumbed-down and the audience is spoon-fed the plot. I can't imagine I've ever gotten anything out of multiple viewings other than noticing details in costumes and sets.

Perhaps if they didn't feel like they had to strive for utter simplicity, they could've made better plot choices.

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Snaga
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2945

posted      Profile for Snaga   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
WGW - I am so glad you chimed in here and I LOVE LOVE LOVE your rule on this particular thread! I'm soooo tempted to go back to other threads and do a stick my tounge out "nah nah na nah nah..." kind of thing to those who interupted similar threads, but I will refrain from such a childish act! []

Now I know exactly how Eomer felt when Aragorn sailed in to Minas Tirith! Now I know exactly how Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli felt when they met Gandalf the White in Fanghorn!!! You rescued us!!! You saved us!!! All who are sad or frustrated with a few or all changes in these films have you to thank for a place to talk safely! [] [] []

I hear what you are saying about Boyens! She simply oozes self righteous arrogance - for those who haven't read this, hold on to your hats and read this interview. http://home.zhwin.ch/~bernaste/rings/newsarchiv/02_12_cs_boyens.html

I think it says all we need to know about her narrow minded approach to Aragorn and Faramir. I would argue that a truly talented writer could easily capture what Tolkien worked so hard to achieve (and did so) with both characters, but noooooo, Boyens just rights it all off as if she so obviously knows better than J.R.R. or anyone else.

Also, this quote is telling:

quote:
Fran likened the process of writing LOTR as this train bearing down on you and we were laying the tracks as it was going and the thing was not about being hit by the train. It was about having to stand back and watch it derail because you failed to lay the tracks properly so it was very close. We were writing up to the night before, we were writing on the set, we'd be writing for 7 different units that were filming at the same time. This allowed for more input from the actors and made the writing process very organic.

Organic? How about choatic as the plot now appears to be in the films? This is a very complex story and this off the cuff rewriting shows itself clearly in the jumble that is now LotR. The new plots don't hold up. With all the preproduction work with storyboarding every single scene, one wonders how so much of the story itself was left to this last minute by committee approach! My God, Viggo didn't even read LotR prior to his getting the part. He does a great job of looking great and reading lines, but to give him input like this? No wonder... My God, has anyone here worked with actors and their egos? Even in some podunk community theater their own glory rules everything! For those actors who have some control, they may have some profound thoughts and other ideas, but in my opinion, Tolkien took care of all that in some 1000s of pages of the books and letters! It was all there to be sorted - it didn't need anything new!!!

[ 12-08-2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Snaga ]

From: Mordor - upper east side | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Snaga
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2945

posted      Profile for Snaga   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
One more thing - honestly WGW, I was to the point where I was going to leave MT - well, the film forum. I was so tired of having on topic discussions disrupted to the point I was just going to walk away for good. Thank you so much for this thread. I really try to be a good citizen of MT and though I stray now and then, I really do try to be polite and fair. Thank you again for all your work and for bringing us this whole place!

[ 12-08-2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Snaga ]

From: Mordor - upper east side | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

posted      Profile for White Gold Wielder   Author's Homepage   Email White Gold Wielder   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Don't thank me. Thank Philippa for endlessly saying things like "the books are OK, but you can't do this/that in a movie". Thank her for speaking to purists as if they were children who don't know what makes a good movie.

And give a bit of props to all those who don't know any better than to love the films intensely without question and who can't stand to hear anyone talk smack about them.

The combined anger they generated led to my inspiration.

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Archer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3857

posted      Profile for Archer   Email Archer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
This allowed for more input from the actors and made the writing process very organic.

This is the stuff you really have to do one of those cartoon head-shakes over and try to guess what was going on in the writer's head. I'm not sure how Ms. Boyens feels she can justify this kind of make-shift jury-rigged writing, though I'm sure in her own little "Boyeniverse," it all makes sense. Not only had Viggo Mortensen NOT read the book, I've heard none of the major actors in the film had read it, or had much familiarity with Tolkien at all. So to ask for their input on the script and plotlines seems like the most absurd thing I've ever heard! Who filled her crackpipe, might I ask?!

How did these people get hold of this wonderful work? Something in that act was terribly amiss. []

Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Tindómerel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3721

posted      Profile for Tindómerel   Author's Homepage   Email Tindómerel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
"I wouldn't take this thing if it lay by the wayside, nothing could induce me to pick this up ..." which on first glance is a great line but dramatically, you can't go there......It's gotta be a dramatic moment, it can't be this little conversation piece around a fireside.
[] [] [] [] Who is she to say it can't??!! Life isn't always dramatic. I think toning it down would be good to show Hollywood that look!! Just because it's not fast and action-packed, doesn't mean it's not a good scene. []
Thank you for the link, Snaga.

From: a small hole in the ground | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

posted      Profile for White Gold Wielder   Author's Homepage   Email White Gold Wielder   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Since each actor spends a lot of time thinking specifically about their character, I don't see the harm in asking their opinion on things. As far as I can see, Viggo didn't ruin the movie. I think they give the actors too much credit for their minor contributions to the script. Or perhaps they are sharing the blame?
From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Firiel Haranfin
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 3793

posted      Profile for Firiel Haranfin   Email Firiel Haranfin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
List of movie-related subjects that I feel *humph*, *grr* or *bleh* about.

~The evil Faramir
~Aragorn's "I don't wanna be king!" issues.
~Arwen's "warrior maid" moments
~Not enough Eomer
~Young Frodo
~Old Elrond (He is and Elf. Elves don't age. Three thousand years old and venerable doesn't change that)
~and counting

From: Dol Amroth | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
La-Brendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1145

posted      Profile for La-Brendel   Author's Homepage   Email La-Brendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well I hadn't watched the appendixes, but now that I see how obsolutely brain dead she is I think I've changed my mind on the movie. Up until now I thought they were okay because she tried, but that doesn't count as trying! All you ever hear about her is how much of a fan she is of the movies, and how she's read the books a million times. Either she lied, or she has dyslexia []
I was absolutely horrified when I saw the Warg battle. not only because the part wasn't true, but because I had no idea those were supposed to be Wargs! When I read the books I never saw them as something that could be controlled by a mindless Orc. Philippa says she is appealing to the fans, but which fans is she talking about? The pure heart fans, or the movie fans who get bored if there arent little mosters playing with sticks?
She raped the book. Faramir was never supposed to be so weak, and saying she had to change his personlity like that is just showing her ignorance.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
~We watch
~And we are always here

The tickle....The taste of
It used to be the reason I breathe but now it's choking me up.

From: California Dude! | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor EowynatHeart
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3437

posted      Profile for EowynatHeart   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I have read some interviews with PJ and if it hadn't been for Ian Mc. there may have not been that many direct quotes from the book anyway.
From: Wait! The map was upside down!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Archer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3857

posted      Profile for Archer   Email Archer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
[] Like Snaga, let me indulge in a bit of bottomless thanks and appreciation, WGW. I was about to permanently move to the literary discussion too. I've been carefully re-reading Tolkien's works in preparation to move to that forum anyway, but before this thread, I was becoming so frustrated with narrow-minded Jackson "purists" attacking anything Tolkien "defenders" said, I didn't think I'd come back. (I was thinking about posting my film frustrations instead on another board that has a reasonably--well sometimes--respected "purists" thread.) I'm so relieved you've put your foot down--I'm compelled to donate and buy MT products in my utter joy! [] [] Yay! MT rocks! It rocks! It rocks! []

[ 12-08-2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Archer ]

Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Lord of the Rings » Purist Rage - How the Films Betrayed Tolkien's Legacy (Page 1)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  ...  51  52  53 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: UnStick Topic   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1