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Author Topic: Legolas' Age
Roll of Honor Thorongil
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Does anyone have info on when this prince was born? I thought I had seen it on one of the timelines at one point, but now I can't find it. Was I mistaken? Or just disorganized?

*awaits dissertation by MANDOS detailing why Legolas was in fact not born at all, but was incarnated out of the trees, hence his name "Greenleaf".... []

Any other input []

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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Dedicated to MANDOS (w/ props to Ozzy):
quote:
When I first met you, didn't realize
I can't forget you, for your surprise
you introduced me, to my mind
And left me wanting, you and your kind

I love you, Oh you know it

My life was empty, forever on a down
Until you took me, showed me around
My life is free now, my life is clear
I love you Greenleaf, though you can't hear

Come on now, try it out

Straight people don't know, what you're about
They put you down and shut you out
you gave to me a new belief
and soon the world will love you Greenleaf

[]
Sorry. [] [] Back to topic: Unless Christopher Tolkien published a date in People's of Middle-earth, I don't think the Professor ever mentioned when Legolas was born. But this piece of dialogue suggests at least 1000:
quote:
'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since [the building of the Golden Hall of Edoras],' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'
(I presume 500 is a 'little while' -- less than half -- in relation to say, over 1000 years.)
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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There is no straight-forward answer.

Here is a great article from Michael Martinez:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517/1

He had some good hints, including the "500 years" quote, the quote about him seeing acorns grow into large trees, his knowledge of the Lay of Nimrodel, and his ignorance of the Sylvan elves of Lorien. In summary: we have to guess.

Here are a couple of other threads about this, but there isn't much extra information there.

where do they figure out legolas' age?

Age of Legolas

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Q
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Actually the explaination is kind of cut and dry, because Legolas, and probably the entire population of Mirkwood awoke during the age of men.

In the chapter "Lothlorien" of Fotr, Legolas tells tales of ME "before the world was grey." Now, the world was grey before the sun and moon appeared on the scene, it just depends on the shade. So, the entire population of Mirkwood would have to have been alseep before the sun and moon appeared, and dreamt dreams without the color grey in it not to notice this fact.
Why else would they use lanters at night in the Forest if they were used to seeing in the dark?

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Roll of Honor Thorongil
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Sil and Thorin, thanks for the links, I had that quote, but the links look more useful, and the poem is just priceless evidence... []

MANDY... [] The elves of Mirkwood just "awoke"? Where did you learn that? []

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I'm a denizen. Athene said so.

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Ooh! Here's a great quote from the immortal Nimruzir.

quote:
AFAIK it takes at least 3,000 years for an elf to grow to maturity (e.g. approx equivalent of 21 human years of age - see ratio of Elven year 144 Coronar to 1 Yen).
Morgoth's Ring; Section XI cited here:
'On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in loar upon loar under the wheeling Sun.'
Legolas at 500 is equal to about a 3 1/2 year old human child in comparison.
Assuming the minimum age of 21 here... it's a safe bet that Legolas was born no earlier than the beginning of the Third Age.
This makes his statement of witnessing many an oak rising from acorn to ruinous age a little clearer.

http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000039;p=1#000014

[ 04-14-2006, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Thorin ]

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Snöwdog
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Thanks Thorin for the link!

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"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
- Bilbo Baggins

"These Lord of the Rings movies must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence they came."

Middle Earth Angling Guide

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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Regarding Legolas' age:

I'd like to bring up that Legolas seemed to know the Balrog of Moria by sight, naming it immediately-- and seemingly being the only one of the party to do so. Even Gandalf seems to know that the creature was a balrog ,only after Legolas tells him; he doesn't know it by sight.

In fact, Gandalf even doesn't know it's a balrog by feeling its spirit or counter-spell; as he tells the party, he'd never encountered anything like it before. Thus, it's safe to say that Gandalf had never encountered a balrog before-- but of course he knew what they were, being a maia of great knowledge and wisdom.

Likewise at Lorién, Legolas calls it "a balrog of Morgoth", with similar certainty of knowing it by sight.

This suggests, but does not prove, that Legolas was present at least as early as the War of Wrath, the last known place where balrogs were present-- as well as the last place Morgoth was present.

Also, the fact that Legolas would use the name "Morgoth" at all, when speaking to Galadriel in the context of "a balrog of Morgoth," indicates that they were both familiar with the name. For Galadriel, this knowledge would obviously be due to her age, which we know; however it has similar implications for Legolas, since they were speaking in familiar terms with regard to discussing the name "Morgoth."

It's unlikely that Legolas would confuse Morgoth with Sauron, via Sauron's declaring himself to be "Morgoth returned--" particularly when speaking to Galadriel; hence, I'm omitting that possibility entirely.

Finally, Thranduil seemed to have no wife; thus, it's entirely possible that his wife was killed by the various evils of Morgoth prior to the War of Wrath-- and thus he journeyed with Legolas back from Beleriand to Middle-Earth following the War of Wrath, and eventually moved from Lindon to Greenwood and became king among the Sindarin Elves there.

As such, there is circumstantial evidence to speculate, that Legolas was indeed alive in the First Age-- and old enough to see Balrogs, and to know of Morgoth when he a living threat. This would probably also mean that he was born at least as early as the Fall of Gondolin in I 510, i.e. 73 years old at the end of the First Age.

This would make Legolas at least 6500 years old at the time of LotR.

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Thingol of Doriath
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quote:
I'd like to bring up that Legolas seemed to know the Balrog of Moria by sight, naming it immediately-- and seemingly being the only one of the party to do so.
Gimli named it immediately as well... even more specific. Legolas named it "a Balrog". Gimli named it "Durin's Bane". The last Dwarf to see a Balrog and live was 1981 in the Third Age... does that mean Gimli is 1200 years old?

quote:
Even Gandalf seems to know that the creature was a balrog ,only after Legolas tells him; he doesn't know it by sight.

That's a mighty big assumption... just because Legolas managed to wail "Balrog" before Gandalf could mutter it.

quote:
In fact, Gandalf even doesn't know it's a balrog by feeling its spirit or counter-spell; as he tells the party, he'd never encountered anything like it before. Thus, it's safe to say that Gandalf had never encountered a balrog before-- but of course he knew what they were, being a maia of great knowledge and wisdom.

But Gandalf had encountered Balrogs before... but on a different level, as Olorin. The Balrogs were Maiar as well. All Maiar were present during the Ainulindalë.

quote:
Likewise at Lorién, Legolas calls it "a balrog of Morgoth", with similar certainty of knowing it by sight.

This suggests, but does not prove, that Legolas was present at least as early as the War of Wrath, the last known place where balrogs were present-- as well as the last place Morgoth was present.

Balrogs and Morgoth figure big in Elven history... why does he have to have seen them to know of them? I find it much more plausible that Legolas learned all about both Balrogs and Morgoth in Elven Histoy 101.

This is, likewise, why Gimli knew what the Balrog was by sight. Dwarven history 101.

Aragorn talks about Beren and Lúthien... does that mean he actually met them? No. Bilbo sings about Eärendil, he didn't meet him as well.

quote:
For Galadriel, this knowledge would obviously be due to her age,
Did Galadriel ever see a Balrog? I don't recall her ever having been described as being in a battle in the First Age, or at the sack of Gondolin. Perhaps she knew of Balrogs as Legolas did... word of mouth.

quote:
As such, there is circumstantial evidence to speculate, that Legolas was indeed alive in the First Age-- and old enough to see Balrogs, and to know of Morgoth when he a living threat. This would probably also mean that he was born at least as early as the Fall of Gondolin in I 510, i.e. 73 years old at the end of the First Age.

This would make Legolas at least 6500 years old at the time of LotR.

This would put Legolas at roughly the same age as Elrond. Do you actually think that sounds likely?

[ 04-16-2006, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Thingol of Doriath ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
quote:
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I'd like to bring up that Legolas seemed to know the Balrog of Moria by sight, naming it immediately-- and seemingly being the only one of the party to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gimli named it immediately as well... even more specific. Legolas named it "a Balrog". Gimli named it "Durin's Bane". The last Dwarf to see a Balrog and live was 1981 in the Third Age... does that mean Gimli is 1200 years old?

The Dwarves didn't know what Durin's Bane was, until that very second; Gimli just realized it.

quote:
quote:
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Even Gandalf seems to know that the creature was a balrog ,only after Legolas tells him; he doesn't know it by sight.

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That's a mighty big assumption... just because Legolas managed to wail "Balrog" before Gandalf could mutter it.

It's not an assumption at all; if fits quite well with the other evidence.

quote:
quote:
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In fact, Gandalf even doesn't know it's a balrog by feeling its spirit or counter-spell; as he tells the party, he'd never encountered anything like it before. Thus, it's safe to say that Gandalf had never encountered a balrog before-- but of course he knew what they were, being a maia of great knowledge and wisdom.

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But Gandalf had encountered Balrogs before... but on a different level, as Olorin. The Balrogs were Maiar as well. All Maiar were present during the Ainulindalë.

But Morgoth's people generally didn't mix with those of Manwë on a social level.
Also there's the fact that Tolkien didn't necessarily consider the balrogs to be maiar at the time he wrote LotR.

Likewise, Gandalf's hatred of the mere mention of the balrog being named, indicates it was something he really hadn't encountered before-- and never wanted to encounter again.

quote:
quote:
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Likewise at Lorién, Legolas calls it "a balrog of Morgoth", with similar certainty of knowing it by sight.

This suggests, but does not prove, that Legolas was present at least as early as the War of Wrath, the last known place where balrogs were present-- as well as the last place Morgoth was present.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Balrogs and Morgoth figure big in Elven history... why does he have to have seen them to know of them? I find it much more plausible that Legolas learned all about both Balrogs and Morgoth in Elven Histoy 101.

There's a difference between hearing stories about something, and knowing it on sight for certain.

quote:
This is, likewise, why Gimli knew what the Balrog was by sight. Dwarven history 101.

Or Legalos just told him what it was; Gimli wouldn't know a balrog from a Silmaril. Daín had only a glimpse of the balrog, and he was mortified; he didn't know what it was.
"Durin's Bane" was only a nameless horror to the Dwarves.

quote:
Aragorn talks about Beren and Lúthien... does that mean he actually met them? No. Bilbo sings about Eärendil, he didn't meet him as well.

He doesn't know them by sight, however-- in fact he thinks that Arwen is Luthien when he sees her. Likewise, Aragorn didn't know the balrog on sight:

quote:
Then Aragorn recounted all that had happened upon the pass of Caradhras, and in the days that followed; and he spoke of Balin and his book, and the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul, and the fire, and the narrow bridge, and the coming of the Terror. 'An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before ,' said Aragorn. `It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
`Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams! I saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes.

The name "Durin's Bane" instead of "the balrog of Khazad-Dûm," was not a euphemism, but a title for something unknown; like "Isildur's Bane," its precise meaning was unknown to those who repeated it.
After all, they didn't call Smaug "Thror's Bane-" they called him "The Dragon of Erebor" or just plain "Smaug."


quote:
quote:
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For Galadriel, this knowledge would obviously be due to her age,
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Did Galadriel ever see a Balrog? I don't recall her ever having been described as being in a battle in the First Age, or at the sack of Gondolin. Perhaps she knew of Balrogs as Legolas did... word of mouth.


Now you're taking me quite out of context. I never said she did-- but she did live during Morgoths' reign. However Legolas was relating to Galadriel what he saw-- and he was the only one to identify it on sight. Gladriel simply knew what a balrog was; she was only the wisest member of the White Council.

quote:
quote:
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As such, there is circumstantial evidence to speculate, that Legolas was indeed alive in the First Age-- and old enough to see Balrogs, and to know of Morgoth when he a living threat. This would probably also mean that he was born at least as early as the Fall of Gondolin in I 510, i.e. 73 years old at the end of the First Age.

This would make Legolas at least 6500 years old at the time of LotR.

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This would put Legolas at roughly the same age as Elrond. Do you actually think that sounds likely?

Yes, since Legolas was not a High Elf. For the Sindarin Elves, time is fairly meaningless-- as Legolas recalls; they do not necessarily increase in sagacity through years alone. In fact as Legolas displayed, he was indeed little concerned with the cares of the others.
Rather, Elves tend to "age" with cares and responsibility; as a carefree woodland prince, Legolas had few of these. Indeed, he was most distressed by Gollum's escape, but even near-fatal blizzards didn't trouble him in the slightest (which would indicate that he'd seen far worse than a little snowstorm, thus supporting his being around during the War of Wrath).

However again accounting for Legolas's origin, it seems that Thranduil does not have a wife at his abode in Northern Mirkwood; rather, Thranduil's chief love seemed to be rare jewels. Since Elves don't generally re-marry after being widowed, this would indicate that Legolas came with him to Greenwood, and possibly there from Lindon-- which was the only part of Middle-Earth west of the Blue Mountains which survived the fall of Beleriand.

For Thranduil to take up abode there, indicates strongly that he did indeed flee Beleriand after the War of Wrath; assuming that his wife did not come with them, this would likewise indicate that she perished sometime before.

[ 04-17-2006, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Thingol of Doriath
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Sorry Wiki- you have me utterly unconvinced!

quote:
It's not an assumption at all; if fits quite well with the other evidence.
It is an assumption... one you make to fit your theory. Your whole theory, in fact, is based on this assumption... that Legolas recognized the Balrog by sight/memory.

quote:
But Morgoth's people generally didn't mix with those of Manwë on a social level.

All Ainur were present when they wove the music...

quote:
Rather, Elves tend to "age" with cares and responsibility; as a carefree woodland prince, Legolas had few of these.
Make up your mind... was he an Elf that survived the Fall of Gondolin, the War of Wrath, The War of the Last Alliance, the Rise of Sauron in Mirkwood, the Battle of the Five Armies... or was he a young carefree Elf that hadn't witnessed any of this? []

quote:
However again accounting for Legolas's origin, it seems that Thranduil does not have a wife at his abode in Northern Mirkwood;
Another assumption... just because she isn't mentioned doesn't mean she doesn't exist or is dead. Glóin's wife(Gimli's mother) isn't mentioned as well...

quote:
For Thranduil to take up abode there, indicates strongly that he did indeed flee Beleriand after the War of Wrath; assuming that his wife did not come with them, this would likewise indicate that she perished sometime before.

Oropher... Thranduil's father founded the Elven Kingdom in Greenwood. He died in the War of the Last Alliance. Read "The Sindarin Princes of Silvan Elves" in Unfinished Tales for the full story of Oropher and Thranduil. [] (I'm too lazy to quote [] )

Sidenote:

quote:
The Dwarves didn't know what Durin's Bane was, until that very second;
This reminds me of another discussion... why didn't Galadriel know that a Balrog lived in Moria? When Durin's Bane appeared the first time, wouldn't she have heard a description from fleeing Dwarves. Wouldn't she have been curious as to what great evil was living on her border? And if she knew... why didn't she tell Gandalf and the White Council? This has always made no sense to me.

[ 04-17-2006, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Thingol of Doriath ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
Make up your mind... was he an Elf that survived the Fall of Gondolin, the War of Wrath, The War of the Last Alliance, the Rise of Sauron in Mirkwood, the Battle of the Five Armies... or was he a young carefree Elf that hadn't witnessed any of this?
Who says he couldn't be carefree if he did witness all of it? As Sam said, "They are quite different from what I expected - so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were."

If I lived through all that, I'd either be carefree as well-- or dead from post-traumatic stress.
Remember that Thranduil was merry-making in Mirkwood despite the forest being infested with evil; obviously Elves had great coping-abilities.

quote:
quote:
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However again accounting for Legolas's origin, it seems that Thranduil does not have a wife at his abode in Northern Mirkwood;
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Another assumption... just because she isn't mentioned doesn't mean she doesn't exist or is dead. Glóin's wife(Gimli's mother) isn't mentioned as well...

I'm not assuming anything; I specifically stated that none of this proves it. Did you miss that part?
It simply suggests.

Gimli was born in III 2879, so yes, Gloín was married during The Hobbit; however the story took place nowhere near his home, and so naturally she wouldn't be mentioned. Meanwhile much of The Hobbit takes place in the halls of the Elf-king, however no Elf-queen is mentioned; rather, the Elf-king simply has a fondness for rare gems.

He also seemed a bit more of a widower, like Denethor; we see the difference between Thranduil and Celeborn, since Galadriel is quite adamant in putting Celeborn in his place for condeming Gimli.

When judging the Dwarves in his halls, Thranduil had no queen present; this would be improper if he had a queen. (Indeed, if he had such a queen present, things might have gone far better between Thorin and the Elves-- as it did when Galadriel was present at Loríen.

Finally, Thranduil seemed to still bear a grudge against Dwarves over the murder of Thingol, so this points even more to his once living in Beleriand.

quote:
quote:
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For Thranduil to take up abode there, indicates strongly that he did indeed flee Beleriand after the War of Wrath; assuming that his wife did not come with them, this would likewise indicate that she perished sometime before.

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Oropher... Thranduil's father founded the Elven Kingdom in Greenwood. He died in the War of the Last Alliance. Read "The Sindarin Princes of Silvan Elves" in Unfinished Tales for the full story of Oropher and Thranduil. (I'm too lazy to quote )

I never said that Oropher didn't; there's nothing inconsistent about this, with what I wrote.
quote:
Sidenote:


quote:
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The Dwarves didn't know what Durin's Bane was, until that very second;
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This reminds me of another discussion... why didn't Galadriel know that a Balrog lived in Moria? When Durin's Bane appeared the first time, wouldn't she have heard a description from fleeing Dwarves. Wouldn't she have been curious as to what great evil was living on her border? And if she knew... why didn't she tell Gandalf and the White Council? This has always made no sense to me.

Because, like I said, nobody knew!

At the Battle of Moria:

quote:

Up the steps after him leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Dáin Ironfoot, Náin's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and there he slew him, and hewed off his head. That was held a great feat, for Dáin was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the Dwarves. But long life and many battles lay before him, until old but unbowed he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.
...
None the less in the morning Thráin stood before them. He had one eye blinded beyond cure, and he was halt with a leg-wound; but he said: 'Good! We have the victory. Khazad-dûm is ours! '
But they answered: 'Durin's Heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. We fought this war for vengeance, and vengeance we have taken. But it is not sweet. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it.'
And those who were not of Durin's Folk said also: 'Khazad-dûm was not our Fathers' house. What is it to us, unless a hope of treasure? But now, if we must go without the rewards and the weregilds that are owed to us, the sooner we return to our own lands the better pleased we shall be.'

Then Thráin turned to Dáin, and said: 'But surely my own kin will not desert me?' 'No,' said Dáin. 'You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

He didn't know what it was-- he just knew it was something that he wouldn't face for anything in the world.


quote:

When Durin's Bane appeared the first time, wouldn't she have heard a description from fleeing Dwarves. Wouldn't she have been curious as to what great evil was living on her border? And if she knew... why didn't she tell Gandalf and the White Council? This has always made no sense to me.

Probably because it was no danger, and it wasn't going anywhere; Smaug, meanwhile, was a present threat because Sauron could have used him
After all, the White Council didn't lift a finger against Smaug for over 170 years, since they figured he wasn't going anywhere; however Gandalf had other ideas once he learned that the Necromancer was indeed Sauron:

quote:

Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?

Likewise, Elves and Dwarves didn't mix, and so there probably wasn't much news exchanged among them. Likewise, Dwarves were generally secretive in nature-- especially against Elves; the fact that Thorin wouldn't say a word to Thranduil about his business-- even when trespassing on his land, and Thranduil being in a position to help or hinder him-- underscores this.
The fact that Thorin came to Gandalf for help-- going all the way to Bree-- and never even thought about approaching Elrond for advice, indicates how much they didn't trust Elves.

[ 04-18-2006, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Thingol of Doriath
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Nope... still not convinced.
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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What's your counter-evidence regarding Legolas' age?
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There is no evidence to support either case... Tolkien hasn't written anything about Legolas' age, besides vague comments about acorns and rocks and such. It's all assumptions. I just don't think your assumptions based on speech patterns of characters at the Bridge of Khazad-dûm hold any merit. But that's just me... believe it if you will.

But, if you want "evidence", I suggest reading this article written by Michael Martinez. His thoughts sum up nicely what I feel about the age of Legolas. []

From: Sverige! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
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I've never seen a bigfoot or dinosaur, but if one lumbered across my yard I'd know what it was. Why do you think that Legolas had to have seen a balrog before Moria to know what it was?
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Thingol of Doriath
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I find it amusing that in this thread you can say that Legolas had brothers even though they are never mentioned... yet here you say that Legolas' mother must be dead since there is no mention of her. []
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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*Flushing Thingol-- twice.....*

quote:
I've never seen a bigfoot or dinosaur, but if one lumbered across my yard I'd know what it was.
You've never seen them on television or movies? You must be Gollum, living in a hole for 500 years!

[ 04-19-2006, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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What about paintings? Carvings? Descriptions in song or prose? I'm betting every single Elf in the North-West of Middle-earth knew what a balrog looked like.
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Thingol of Doriath
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quote:
*Flushing Thingol-- twice.....*
Explain? You're not getting rude just because I don't agree with you, are you?

quote:
What about paintings? Carvings? Descriptions in song or prose? I'm betting every single Elf in the North-West of Middle-earth knew what a balrog looked like.
Thranduil's halls were built with Menegroth in mind and Menegroth was filled with carvings and tapestries:

quote:
Carven figures of beasts and birds there ran upon the walls... and as the years passed Melian and her maidens filled the halls with woven hangings wherein could be read the deeds of the Valar, and many things that had befallen in Arda since its beginning, and shadows of things that were yet to be.

-"Of the Sindar" The Silmarillion

It wouldn't be odd if there was an historical tapestry depicting Balrogs hanging somewhere in Thranduil's halls.

As for songs... Aragorn sung a song about Beren and Lúthien with a vivid description of her. Surely there were songs sung about Balrogs with descriptions of them as well. In fact, in The Silmarillion we are told:

quote:
Many are the song that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon the pinnacle of rock in that high place.

-"Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" The Silmarillion

Another note about the absence of his wife... no female Mirkwood Elf is ever mentioned. No maiden, huntress, butleress, princess or queen. Yet they were obviously present.

[ 04-20-2006, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Thingol of Doriath ]

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Wetwang
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quote:
You're not getting rude just because I don't agree with you, are you?
Don't take it personally Swelf []
WiKi has been more obnoxious than usual these last couple of days judging the latest round of posts []
More proof I think that WiKi is actually a girl that is going through 'that time of the month' if you know what I mean []

[ 04-20-2006, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: Wetwang ]

From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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I would have said he's equally obnoxious all the time, which means he must be a man.
[]

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Earendilyon
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Some discussions at another board:
Was Legolas present in the battle where Sauron was deafeated?
Legolas Age

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me."

John 3:16-21

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Thingol of Doriath
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A great article by Ellen Brundige... putting Legolas' age at about 2000 years old. She uses different, but no less compelling, reasons than Michael Martinez.

I enjoyed one point in particular...

quote:
In the Second Age their king, Oropher [the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas], had withdraw northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien. But as yet there was little to fear between the Greenwood and the Mountains and there was constant intercourse between his people and their kin across the river, until the War of the Last Alliance.

-"History of Galadriel and Celeborn" Unfinished Tales

If this is so... then Legolas surely would have visited Lórien in the Second Age when there was "constant intercourse"(Tolkien's words, not mine [] [] ) between the peoples. Yet, he had never been there... putting his birth in the Third Age.

And here is a little theory of mine as evidence that Legolas was not born in the First Age.

quote:
In the beginning of this age [The Second Age] many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these.

-"Appendix B" The Lord of the Rings

Now, according to Wiki, Legolas would have been living with his father then "in Lindon west of the Ered Luin". In other words, by the Sea. Yet Legolas, it is easy to surmise, had never seen the Sea or heard a gull until the march from Dunharrow to Pelagrir.

[ 04-20-2006, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Thingol of Doriath ]

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Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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That 144:1 ratio for an elf's maturing (Nimuzir's post above): what about Maeglin? He was only about 190 when Gondolin fell.
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