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Minas Tirith Forums » Reference Material » Referencing Tolkien's Works - Editions & Pagination
Author Topic: Referencing Tolkien's Works - Editions & Pagination
Mithrennaith
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This thread arose from a passing remark about the well known problem that many of Tolkien's works, especially LotR, Hob and Sil, have been published in several, sometimes very many, editions with different paginations.

This prompted me to give an overview of solutions that have been attempted:
  • One may designate a certain pagination as a reference standard. I would not be surprised if the pagination of the 50th anniversary edition were to become a reference standard in the future, as all ten publication forms of it (one- as well as three-volume) have the same pagination, and Hammond&Scull's Readers Companion refers to this.
  • This may be supplemented by an (approximate!) formula to calculate between different paginations.
  • Easier and probably better is to refer not to page numbers, but to such units of text that are identified independent of pagination, such as Book (or Part) and Chapter, or Prologue or Appendix or other as applicable, and such section and sub-sections of these as can be identified by name and/or number.
  • Beregond, Anders Stenström of the Forodrim Tolkien Society of Sweden created a total solution basically by supplementing these identifiable units of text by counting paragraphs within chapters (or equivalents). It is called the Arda Structural Reference System and a full description can be found on the internet, at http://www.forodrim.org/arda/arda_ref.html
    To make this easier to use the Spanish Tolkien Society has drawn up a complete numbered list of paragraphs, for LotR, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, under the name of The Ardarathorn Project.
    Thorin located this list (it comes as a hefty zipped excel-file, with explanations in English and Spanish included) on the internet; it has now been moved to http://www.sociedadtolkien.org/contenidos/ardarathorn/ where it can be found linked to the words “este enlace” in the penultimate line:
    quote:
    Se puede descargar el archivo del proyecto en este enlace.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

E: The original first post of the list follows:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

As The Dread Pirate Roberts said in 'The hand of Ilúvatar in Fellowship' thread (referring to LotR):
quote:
(we all have different versions so I post no page numbers)
Over time, people have thought up several (mainly partial) solutions to this problem. The least anyone can do is give Book (which is not equal to Volume) and Chapter numbers, or Prologue and section number or Appendix and part, section and/or other as applicable. At least these are the same in all editions (except that Prol.5 does not exist in any edition pre-1965 and App C:BG and BF family trees can only be found in the 50th anniversary edition).

Robert Foster, in his Complete Guide to Middle-earth, gave page references to several editions. In subsequent editions his publishers (same as Tolkien's) have updated the references to their own (more or less recent) editions of Tolkien's works. This has the general disadvantage that one has to keep updating to newer Tolkien editions, also for the average poster on a forum, even MT, that he will not have many different editions available (I know there are exceptions, but even I don't run further than four {since last saturday - at the time I first wrote this, that was December 17, 2005} English and four Dutch editions of LotR with different pagination).

Many people, like Jim Allan (An introduction to Elvish) and the late Karen Wynn Fonstad (The Atlas of Middle-earth) have taken one very common edition as a reference. Allan's choice of the Ballantine paperbacks, even though americanocentric, was understandable in his time (1977), as it was then probably the most numerous edition. Fonstad's choice of the Houghton Mifflin hardcovers was probably more lasting, since all three-volume hardcovers, whether HM or Allan&Unwin/Unwin Hyman/Harper Collins, had the same pagination till 2004. Even the revisions to the text made for the second edition in 1966 made nearly no difference to the pagination, except for the Prologue (which got moved down a page to make room for section 5). The late Richard E. Blackwelder, in his A Tolkien Thesaurus, referenced both these paginations.

Fonstad, instead, supplemented her choice with a formula to calculate Ballantine page numbers from hardcover ones and vice versa. This has prompted me to make an excell-sheet that makes calculations between five English and four Dutch editions. Of course, the calculations aren't 100% accurate, but they serve a purpose. I also made similar sheets for The Hobbit, The Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales.

A total solution was created by Beregond, Anders Stenström of the Forodrim Tolkien Society of Sweden. It is called the 'Arda Structural Reference System' and basically supplements the Book and Chapter numbers by counting paragraphs within chapters (or equivalents). A full description can be found on the internet, at http://www.forodrim.org/arda/arda_ref.html (I originally found it through the Mellonath Daeron site). The disadvantage is, of course, that one has to count paragraphs, but to help with this (and also because the paragraphs sometimes differ between editions, especially when translations are taken into account) the Spanish Tolkien Society has drawn up a complete numbered list of paragraphs, for The Hobbit and The Silmarillion as well as for LotR. This is called the 'Ardarathorn Project' and was made available to all Tolkien societies in the International Tolkien Fellowship in 2004. [This system is used in my signature.]

The most recent development, however, has come about through preparing the 50th anniversary edition of LotR and Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull's LotR Readers Companion in parallel. Thus all the versions of the 50th anniversary edition (so far I have seen deluxe and ordinary one volume hardcovers and one volume paperbacks by both Harper Collins and Houghton Mifflin and three volume hardcover and paperback by Harper Collins, and there must of course also be a three volume hardback by Houghton Mifflin, and a three volume paperback by them or Ballantine) have the same pagination and the Readers Companion (published in matching hardback and paperback editions by both HC and HM) refers to this pagination. I would not be surprised if this '50th anniversary pagination' were to become a reference standard in the future. (BTW, As far as I am aware this is the first time that English-language three volume editions have been published with continuous page numbers, though we were used to that for a long time with the Dutch translation.)

[ 05-21-2014, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Mithrennaith ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: At least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men live in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: At least I spilled no blood?
'When either way may lead to evil, of what worth is choice? Let the Valar rule under Eru!
- Tar Meneldur [UT 2 II:173-174]

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Mithrennaith
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On the advice of Thorin, Earendilyon and Wetwang I have now created this thread for my exposition in the previous post and discussion on this.

From the original thread (where these posts have now been removed):

I wrote:
quote:
PS. If WGW finds that this is too long an excursion to be acceptable in this thread, please move it to a thread of its own (in a more suitable place, if necessary).
Thorin wrote:
quote:
Completely off topic:

Mithrennaith, I think that is a great point, and solves many problems that we periodically run into. I would love to comment upon it, but we are really way off the topic The Dread Pirate Roberts started. Why don't you start a new thread, and then just copy and paste this post there?

I wrote:
quote:
Off topic:

Thorin, I completely agree, and that is what I would like to do. The only reason I'm now again posting off-topic is because I would like to have some advice on which forum would be best for this, and whether to delete (or rather, empty) my off-topic posts here. And on reflection, I decided against pm-ing you, since other people might have pertinent advice too.

So, apologies again, and as soon as I get some good advice where to, I'll move this topic to its own thread!

Earendilyon wrote:
quote:
Mith, I think you can either open a new thread here in the LotR Forum or in the Reference Material Forum. After that, clear your first post and put a link to the new topic in it. At least, that's what I would do.

Out of out of out of context: zwaar Kerstdiner gehad? Je was nog errug laat hier in MT!

Likewise out^4 of context: Niet zo zwaar, maar laat en uitgebreid. Stoofkonijn. []

EDIT: Mr Wang sent me similar advice by pm.

EDIT2: On WGW's advice I have now changed my starting post, prefixing it by a short introduction giving the relevant links.

[ 01-06-2006, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Mithrennaith ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: At least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men live in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: At least I spilled no blood?
'When either way may lead to evil, of what worth is choice? Let the Valar rule under Eru!
- Tar Meneldur [UT 2 II:173-174]

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Well, I think the obvious question is: how can one use the 'Ardarathorn Project'? I would like to start using it yesterday. A search on google hasn't helped. Is it on the web somewhere? The only option that I personally can think of is to start with the quote from your signature (which I know is correct) and start counting backwards and forewards.

This system is well-known for anyone who reads ancient literature (or even the Bible). I have even wondered about it for Tolkein, but I had no idea that someone had actually done it. Excellent information!

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Mithrennaith
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The STE (Sociedad Tolkien Español = Spanish Tolkien Society) has mailed a rather hefty zip containing the Ardarathorn project to the ITF mailing list. The I(nternational) T(olkien) F(ellowship) is a sort of informal co-operation between Tolkien societies all over the world led by The Tolkien Society. I'll not go further into that in this thread, if any-one wants to know more, I think we should set up a thread in one of the Inns.

As far as I know, they haven't made it available on the internet in any (other) way. So I think there are three ways to avail yourself of the Ardarathorn file.

1)
You could approach the STE ( sociedad@sociedadtolkien.org / www.sociedadtolkien.org ) and ask them to mail the file.
2)
If you're a member of a Tolkien society you could ask your own society, and if they haven't got it (or haven't even heard of it), you can suggest they get into the ITF shortly and ask the STE for it.
3)
If WGW thinks this is a resource that should be provided through the Minas Tirith site, for instance in the Library, I'ld be happy to approach the STE to get their permission to place it here. Or alternatively one of the members that already provide certain resources may want to host it (am I thinking Nimruzîr or Herendil here?). I think the STE would be quite ready to agree, preferring this to getting a lot of individual requests under option 1.

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Got it! They do have it online in Spanish and English!

http://www.sociedadtolkien.org/noticia.php?id=68

For those of you who can’t read Spanish, just click on the “aquí” which is at the bottom, in this quote:
quote:
Puedes bajarte el archivo aquí.
Thanks, Mithrennaith !

[ 12-29-2005, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Thorin ]

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Mithrennaith
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You're welcome Thorin, and thank you for unearthing the place where it can be found on the web!

[ 12-29-2005, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Mithrennaith ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: At least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men live in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: At least I spilled no blood?
'When either way may lead to evil, of what worth is choice? Let the Valar rule under Eru!
- Tar Meneldur [UT 2 II:173-174]

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Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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Thank you, Mithrennaith and Thorin.
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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I was not aware that the Arda format is used that extensively, and since I myself use e-texts (I am even dependent on them) that allow fast searching and have assumed that most other people do so as well, I have not quite seen a reason good enough to use the format. But I think that I will try to use it from now on.
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Well, I don’t think that it is used extensively. However, I wish it would be and I plan on doing it myself. I think it would be helpful if it was used here. For instance, here is the way I have previously cited passages:
http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002142;p=1#000000

Nice enough, I suppose, although it may take a searcher quite a while to find that exact quote in their copy. And then we have quotes like this, where not even the book is mentioned, much less chapter:
http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002142;p=1#000004

Hitherto there has clearly been problems with citations. I think it would be great if this system was followed here, but it will take extra work for the poster. We’ll see what happens.

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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I have a confession and a practical question. I haven't been using the Arda format much. The reason is simply time - one has to find the quote that you want, then go to the Arda file and find the right reference code.

Mithrennaith, practically, how do you do it? Did you write the Arda codes in your books (or the electronic equivalent)? Or do you take the time to look it up seperately?

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Mithrennaith
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Well, Thorin, writing paragraph numbers in your books is what the STE are actually talking about in the prologue to their database.

But don't like to do that, so I've indeed been taking the time to look the codes up separately. The way I do it, it doesn't take that long: I usually need a reference code when I'm typeing at the computer, so I open the excell database (from the STE) and hunt it out. It helps of course to have a feel for whereabouts in a chapter you are, lengthwise.

It takes longer when I want to reference a work that isn't in the STE database - I then have to count paragraphs manually. But that really only happens with UT, or with Letters (where it's usually very easy). I have not yet had occasion to refer to the small works (only ATB being concerned with M-e) and in HoMe paragraph numbers are for the some of the most important texts already provided by Christopher, apart from which I think that all editions of those volumes still have the same pagination, so that the problem is not that pressing there.

But I've just recently been going through a number of e-books that I got hold off, and I was actually thinking of entering the paragraph numbers in some of those. That takes time too, however.

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