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Minas Tirith Forums » Reference Material » The Legendarium Project (Page 8)
Author Topic: The Legendarium Project
Dark Lord Andúril
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lots of inactivity in this forum recently.
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Wetwang
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[] [] ERM!!! [] []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Keep the earth under your feet, & clay on your fingers; wisdom in your bones, & have both eyes open!
That's Mr Wang™ to you!
This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun.

This bog is thick and easy...

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Dark Lord Andúril
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yes?
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Wetwang
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Seems like business is picking up a bit []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Keep the earth under your feet, & clay on your fingers; wisdom in your bones, & have both eyes open!
That's Mr Wang™ to you!
This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun.

This bog is thick and easy...

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Dark Lord Andúril
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[] Thats why i commented.
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jorwisgar
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So what have you got so far?

[ 04-16-2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: jorwisgar ]

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Dark Lord Andúril
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I thought that this thread might deserve a *bump*
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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I have been working on the Second Age and now I would like to know peoples' opinions on one thing.

According to the Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor in Unfinished Tales, the 'ordinary' Númenóreans lived three times as long as other Men, and those of the Line of Elros lived to about 400 years (before the coming of the Shadow), except Elros who lived to be 500 years old:
quote:
they [Númenóreans] remained unwearied for thrice the span of mortal Men in Middle-earth; but to Eärendil's son the longest life of any Man was given, and to his descendants a lesser span and yet one greater than to others even of the Númenóreans
This is probably the most common conception among readers.

But note 1 to Line of Elros states that according to Tolkien's latest writing on the life-span of the Númenóreans, they as a whole lived to be around 400 years old and that only Elros lived especially long:
quote:
But in the latest writing on this subject (which derives, however, from about the same time as the latest work on the tale of Aldarion and Erendis) the distinction in longevity is greatly diminished. To the Númenórean people as a whole is ascribed a life-span some five times the length of that of other Men
quote:
In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity
Now, we want of course to include the story Aldarion and Erendis (which can also be found in Unfinished Tales) in the Legendarium, so let us see how this conception fits there.

Erendis is more shortlived than Aldarion; this is an important fact in the story, which contributes to their separation. But according to the conception I described above, the life-span of the Númenóreans as a whole is 400 years, which is the same as Aldarion's life expectancy. So there is a contradiction here. But it seems that Tolkien did care about both texts, because both derive from about the same time:
quote:
which derives, however, from about the same time as the latest work on the tale of Aldarion and Erendis
And indeed CT says in note 1 to Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor:
quote:
Though the case of Erendis, and the somewhat shorter lives of the "Bëorians" of the West, are mentioned, there is no suggestion here [in the writing], as there is in the tale of Aldarion and Erendis, that the difference in their expectation of life was both very great and also something inherent in their destinies and recognised to be so.
It may be that when Tolkien did his first work on Aldarion and Erendis he had the 'old' conception of the Númenórean life-span, but then he changed it (why?), and in order to get Aldarion and Erendis to work he had to decide that the people of the Westlands had a shorter life-span than other Númenóreans, which is strange given the fact that those people were of all Númenóreans the closest friends of the Eldar:
quote:
Thus the Eldar graced the wedding of Erendis, for love of the people of the Westlands, who were closest in their friendship.
and according to Tolkien's latest writing on the life-span of the Númenóreans,
quote:
the increase in the Númenórean span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar
One would believe that the people of the Westlands, who were closest in friendship with them, had a lifestyle very similar to that of the Eldar. And by the way, what does 'the increase in the Númenórean span" mean? The first thing you come to think about is that it means the increase of the span of the Edain when they were granted their gift. But could it actually mean that the 'ordinary' Númenóreans first perhaps had a lifespan thrice that of other Men, but then it increased to five times?

EDIT: It actually says in Appendix A (and in note 1 to Lines of Elros: Kings of Númenor too) that the life-span of the Númenóreans was in the beginning thrice that of lesser Men:
quote:
For though a long span of life had been granted to them, in the beginning thrice that of lesser Men
Then I have to think about this some more, because it might work in a different way.

EDIT II: Or does that 'in the beginning' refer to the fact that the life-span of the Númenóreans began to wane at the coming of the Shadow?

[ 05-10-2003, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: Isildur of Númenórë ]

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Isildur, perhaps Tolkien wished to show that an assimilation with the Eldar and their lifestyle would increase their lifespan. This may account for Eldarion having such longevity, due to the fact that Eldarion had such close ties with the Eldar.

This would also mean that other Numenoreans who would not have such close ties in with the Eldar, to lose their longevity and become more like "normal" Edain, due to thier dissimilation.

Andúril

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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How do you know if Eldarion lived that long? He might have been killed in the New Shadow. Furthermore, this is said in Peoples of Middle-earth, The Heirs of Elendil:
quote:
He [Elessar] wedded Arwen Undómiel, daughter of Elrond, brother of Elros first King of Númenor, and so restored the majesty and high lineage of the royal house, but their life-span was not restored and continued to wane until it became as that of other men.
So he probably lived shorter than Elessar anyway.

If you meant Aldarion, then he lived to about 400 years like all the other early kings did.

I didn't adress everything you said, more will follow.

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Dark Lord Andúril
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To be honest, I dont recall what I was talking about at all. But, scrapping the names, do you think that contact with Elves may hvae increased longevity? Aragorn was brought up by Elves nd he live for a very long time.
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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After some more research, it really does seem that the Númenórean life-span was increased due to assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar. At least that is what I understand of this sentence:
quote:
the increase in the Númenórean span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar: though they were expressly warned that they had not become Eldar, but remained mortal Men, and had been granted only an extension of the period of their vigour of mind and body.
They were granted a long life-span and then got it increased due to assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar. Or were they granted a long life-span because they began to live more like the Eldar? Then the isle of Númenor doesn't have much to do with it. Did Tolkien change the whole conception of Elenna, the Land of Gift?

Maybe the Númenóreans of the Third Age didn't live much like the Elves, so they didn't get any 'bonus' from that. []

Could it work like this: First, the ordinary Númenóreans were granted a "3x life-span", the descendants of Elros 5x and Elros himself 6x. Then, the ordinary Númenóreans began to live more and more like the Eldar, and so their life-span increased to 5x. Maybe the descendants of Elros were not able to live more like the Eldar than what they already did so their life-span didn't increase. [] Then, somehow the people of the Westlands didn't adjust their lifestyle to that of the Eldar, though they were their closest friends ( [] ), and thus they stayed at 3x (it seems that Erendis had a 3x span because she lived 214 years. She probably took her life near the end of her potential life-span). It is said several times in Aldarion and Erendis that Erendis didn't have Aldarion's lifespan because of the fact that Erendis was not a descendant of Elros, which isn't the correct explanation if we are to go for this conception, but maybe we can let this pass through.

So, does this work? []

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Nash Rómerandir
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I have just one word to say to explain why "living like Elves" might increase the life span of a man: Lembas []
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Lembas didn't prolong life in that sense:

Peoples of Middle-earth, Of Lembas:
quote:
It [Lembas] was made for the comfort of those who had need to go upon a long journey in the wild, or of the hurt whose life was in peril.
Has anyone else something to say? []

[ 05-16-2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Isildur of Númenórë ]

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Nash Rómerandir
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[] Just kidding Isildur []

well, seriously, living by the elvish standards is probably something that may increase lifespan, better food/medecine... See how last century's improvements of the living standards increased the lifespan?
I tend to think it's nothing compared to what elvish standards might do!

[ 05-21-2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Nash Rómerandir ]

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Yes, I agree with you, but does anyone have anything to say about my suggestion above?
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Dark Lord Andúril
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I agreed with you.
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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The Númenórean life-span is discussed more thoroughly here.
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Hey Maerbenn, I know that you have continued to work on this. Just out of curiousity: how far have you gotten? Where are you at now?
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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I have been reading up and working on the Second Age in the summer. I don't know yet how much time I can commit to this in the autumn, but when I have anything to show, like 'teasers' and so on, I'll let everyone know.

Maerbenn has been working on the First Age, and is coming closer to completing it. He can provide further information himself (if he so wishes [] ).


One thing that we want everyone to know: we are serious about this and intend to get it done.

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Hurrah for seriousness.

I would only that I had more time on my hands to give more aid to you fellows. Please give me a call if you need any proof reading done or anything...

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Yes, we have thought about asking many people if they want to proof-read one part each. If only one person would proof-read the whole thing it would take a long time.

So stay tuned. []

[ 08-28-2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Excellent.
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Dark Lord Andúril
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*Monthly tune in...
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Dark Lord Andúril
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*ressurects again
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