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Minas Tirith Forums » Reference Material » The Legendarium Project (Page 6)
Author Topic: The Legendarium Project
Eldorian
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Bingo I think I've got an idea. Cirith you say means rock or cleft. Rock is hard. So I think that the pronunciation is describing what the word means. What do you think to that idea? As I say it is only an idea but I think that could be a possible answer.

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From: Wizard land though I'm most often found in the V.O.E | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
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Well, even if you may be on to something there, Lynora/Lynoran, I think this quote from Letter #187 ends this discussion, unless someone finds something contradicting and more recent:
quote:
187 From a letter to H. Cotton Minchin (draft)
[Not dated; April 1956. Tolkien has written at the top: 'More or less as sent 16 April (with some reduction).']
As 'research students' always discover, however long they are allowed, and careful their work and notes, there is always a rush at the end, when the last date suddenly approaches on which their thesis must be presented. So it was with this book, and the maps. I had to call in the help of my son – the C.T. or C.J.R.T. of the modest initials on the maps – an accredited student of hobbit-lore. And neither of us had an entirely free hand. I remember that when it became apparent that the 'general map' would not suffice for the final Book, or sufficiently reveal the courses of Frodo, the Rohirrim, and Aragorn, I had to devote many days, the last three virtually without food or bed, to drawing re-scaling and adjusting a large map, at which he then worked for 24 hours (6 a.m. to 6 a.m. without bed) in re-drawing just in time. Inconsistencies of spelling are due to me. It was only in the last stages that (in spite of my son's protests: he still holds that no one will ever pronounce Cirith right, it appears as Kirith in his map, as formerly also in the text) I decided to be 'consistent' and spell Elvish names and words throughout without k. There are no doubt other variations. ....

I didn't know that kirith/cirith was special, but from this letter it is pretty clear that JRRT would have wanted to use 'c' instead of 'k' atleast in The Lord of the Rings (perhaps there were some mistakes though), in both Quenya and Sindarin words. 1956 is rather late, so I don't think he ever changed this conception later. This would mean that I will use 'c' instead of 'k' throughout the Legendarium.
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Halion
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I think I have changed my mind about the spelling. I found some interesting examples in the Last Writings collection of manuscripts (which are the last writings by JRRT in all of The History of Middle-earth series, so they should represent Tolkien's last conceptions):

Círdan (Sindarin)
Melkor (Quenya)
Cristhorn (Sindarin)
Turukáno (Quenya)
Ñoldor (Quenya)
Celeborn (Sindarin)

So in the end, it seems to me that Tolkien spelt Sindarin words with 'c' and Quenya words with 'k' (and Noldor has a special 'N' with a "wave", I am not sure about its pronunciation). I already know that Khuzdul, Adûnaic, Westron and Orkish (Black Speech) words are always spelt with 'k' instead of 'c'. It doesn't seem to be any problems with Valarin (if I choose to use some words/names in that language).

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Lhunithiliel
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Hi, there!
I've been away for a couple of days, more actually, but why don't I see any news about the project?
Maerbenn, or (as I translated your name in the "Names" section) "Good husband/man" [] what's up? How is it going? Did you receive my last e-mail?
Any comments?
Any questions?
Any suggestions?

Has this place turned into some sacred ancient and long forgotten citadell not visited by the "mortals" but just by the trusted ones?
Well, I come from Valinor [] so I am allowed...

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Halion
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quote:
I've been away for a couple of days, more actually, but why don't I see any news about the project?
Well, I too have been away for a couple of days, and rather busy with other things before that.
quote:
Maerbenn, or (as I translated your name in the "Names" section) "Good husband/man" []
In the case of Maerbenn I used maer for "useful", and to make it more of a name I added the -benn ending, but I am not sure if that's correct. [] []
quote:
what's up? How is it going?
Well, I have been studying HoMe some more, and been thinking about the relations between AAm, LQ and what ended up in the published Silmarillion. It seems that CT has combined them well, just what I intended to do in the Project, so I'm quite satisfied with the way he did it (in regard to the Project, perhaps not to the Silmarillion). But it seems that he did some editing which wasn't necessary (simplying some passages, for example), so I would be very interested in seeing a compiled list containing such examples of editing by CT. I hope to have the narrative covering the First Age more or less completed by the end of this month (because my university starts in September), but I don't want in any case to rush this (JRRT didn't either), because this may well be a once-in-a-lifetime experience (I'm not sure if I would start a project like this again). []
quote:
Did you receive my last e-mail?
Yes, I did. Sorry for not acknowledging it earlier.
quote:
Any comments?
Well, they certainly look very nice, but I don't think they are what I'm looking for. They look too colourful and fancy. []
quote:
Any questions?
What program do you use? Did you make those all by yourself or did you use some example images that came with the program? And may I post (some of) your creations here in the thread (I think other members would be interested in seeing them)?
quote:
Any suggestions?
Well, I think that the so called dropped caps should look "tolkienesque", such that Tolkien would have liked them. That may be pretty hard to know, but perhaps it's possible to get an idea by looking in the first editions of TH and LR that JRRT planned and approved, maybe they contain some dropped caps, I don't know. It could also be interesting to look in the various collector's editions, but they weren't approved by JRRT so they can't give us any definitive clue (I'm not really into expensive collector's editions even though I'm quite a fan). And one other more technical thing: it would be nice if you could try to make vector-based images, the bitmap-based don't look very good when blown up.
quote:
Has this place turned into some sacred ancient and long forgotten citadell not visited by the "mortals" but just by the trusted ones?
Well, I come from Valinor [] so I am allowed...

I don't intend this thread to be any "elite club" if that's what you mean. In fact, I would be very happy if more people would post in this thread. The posts don't have to be "scholarly", just overall opinions or expectations would be great, like the ones in the beginning of this thread.
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Lhunithiliel
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Thanks Maerbenn for your answer - correct and comprehensive, as always!

Now, in your style, here are some of my comments;

1.
quote:
What program do you use? Did you make those all by yourself or did you use some example images that came with the program? And may I post (some of) your creations here in the thread (I think other members would be interested in seeing them)?
I use Corel PhP and another special program called "Painter" but I am not an expert. I did that projects myself using ready elements offered by the programs, but my daughter is a real wizard in these things. Unfortunately she is not interested in LOTR - theme, so there is a little that she has made so far, although very interesting, IMO. If you wish, I will be happy to show her works, though, of course, even if on LOTR-subject, they will not serve your project.
And yes, if you like, you may show these things here...
BTW, how are pictures enclosed? It does not work with simply "copy-paste" commands.

2.
quote:
Well, I have been studying HoMe some more, and been thinking about the relations between AAm, LQ and what ended up in the published Silmarillion.
Who, excuse my ignorance, are AAm and LQ? And HoME?

3. I would like to ask you, when you are fitting in parts of the stories, do you take them from books, meaning typing them? Or do you use some other sources? Are there Tolkien's works published electronically on the net?

Well, enough for now!
Meet you some other day...

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Halion
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quote:
Unfortunately she is not interested in LOTR - theme, so there is a little that she has made so far, although very interesting, IMO. If you wish, I will be happy to show her works, though, of course, even if on LOTR-subject, they will not serve your project.
Of course, feel free to send them to me by e-mail, I'm interested in all things Tolkien, even though they aren't useful for this project. []
quote:
BTW, how are pictures enclosed? It does not work with simply "copy-paste" commands.
Well, that's a bit problematic, because you have to have the pictures hosted on a WWW server. When you have solved that problem, you should be able to post the pictures by linking to them with the URL UBB Code by using the "URL" button.
quote:
Who, excuse my ignorance, are AAm and LQ? And HoME?
Sorry, I was a bit lazy, so I used abbreviations. []
HoMe = The History of Middle-earth series
AAm = The Annals of Aman (written in 1950-1951 with some later emendations, published in HoMe X)
LQ = The Later Quenta Silmarillion (First Phase written in 1951, Second Phase written in 1958, published in HoMe X & XI)
quote:
I would like to ask you, when you are fitting in parts of the stories, do you take them from books, meaning typing them? Or do you use some other sources? Are there Tolkien's works published electronically on the net?
I will answer this by sending a PM to you. []
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Maneriniel
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"I don't intend this thread to be any "elite club" if that's what you mean. In fact, I would be very happy if more people would post in this thread. The posts don't have to be "scholarly", just overall opinions or expectations would be great, like the ones in the beginning of this thread."
How do you do this quote thing?

Hello, I am new to MT and am taking the lead from Lhunithiliel a dear friend of mine. And I am so glad to have read the above becasue I certainly am not a scholar in any way. From what I have read though I will learn fast.
quote:
"I don't intend this thread to be any "elite club" if that's what you mean. In fact, I would be very happy if more people would post in this thread. The posts don't have to be "scholarly", just overall opinions or expectations would be great, like the ones in the beginning of this thread."
See I told you I will learn fast!

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Lhunithiliel
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WELCOME, MY FRIEND!
You have come to the right place! Maerbenn is a bright young man that will make us both ashamed of not knowing that much as he does! But on the other hand, he is always so helpful! []

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jorwisgar
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Hi Maerbenn, I just came by to see how this big project is going and that if I could be of any help
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Halion
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Well, I could use all the help I can get. [] []

What's your area of expertise, jorwisgar? []

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jorwisgar
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mmmmm I don't know....
why don't you tel me in what I could be of any use? []

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Halion
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jorwisgar, sorting out the First Age (and everything that happens before it) is top priority right now. But it would also be nice if you (or anyone else) could try to find out if any of the pictures in the book J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator ( this is the link to Amazon's buying info) could be useful for adding into the text. []

[ 08-15-2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

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Lhunithiliel
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The more I read, Maerbenn, the better I understand the importance of your project!
There is so much that has to be sorted out, arranged, referred to... [] [] []

I only wish I could possibly be of any help to you. You say in what way! I'd love to help! []

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Greetings Maerbenn!

Thanks for inviting me to this incredibly interesting thread which I have just spent half an hour reading all 6 pages. As I said on that other thread, I have compiled a document which lists every chapter of LOTR, TH, TS and the First 5 volumes of HoME. If you want to see this Id be happy to send it you but it aint completely accurate necessarily as I havent read through the whole thing as yet.

Ok I am now gonna list what I have and can do to help this incredible project that you intend to undertake:

I have a wordlist of all the Elvan languages that I can get hold of at the moment (Danian, Doriathrin, Eldarin, Exilic Noldorin, Ilkorin, Lindarin, Noldorin, Old Noldorin, Ossiriandeb, Primitive Quendian, Sindarin and Telerin). This (at the moment) is 5840 elvish words long and is growing by the day.

I am fairly competant therefore at translating many elvish languages into english and vise versa. I am also extremely familiar with the first 5 books of HoME, TS, TH and LOTR. I own an enclycopedia of middle earth and aman as well as maps of middle earth and aman. The journeys of frodo is also a brilliant book which will also help to change any logistical errors in the placement of places or descriptions of distances in LOTR.

For example: “I imagine that Stock was built on a small rise above the marsh, the city of Ely in the Cambridgeshire marshes of East Anglian England, or it would have been an unhealthy place for a village.”

There are other such corrections that you may wish to consider when compiling the descriptions of the latter part of the Third Age in your manuscript.

Finally I have made many research notes on various parts of Tolkiens works that you may be intersted in.

If you want me to do anything at all concerning this project then please don’t hesitate to ask on this forum or, if you wish, contact me on my email at aragornheirofisildur@hotmail.com

Thanks a lot!

Anduril

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Hi again.

I was thinking about the name The Legandarium. Im not really sure of an alternative but I am sure we can think of somehting better. Something Elvish possibly, like "Paluriniaur" - The Ancient World or something similar. What d'you think?

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Dark Lord Andúril
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or the Quenta Paluriniaur like the Quenta Silmarillion. It would sound really good. "The tales of the Ancient World" and such things...
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Grond
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I just wanted to jump in here and volunteer my help in any way possible. I am a very mature (old) Tolkien fan and have all the works in many different editions (none really old though). I have also read Hob, LotR, Sil, UT... too many times to remember. Most of the time if you need info... I will know where to find it. That comes with a caveat though... I am Elvishly impaired. I have not delved into the Elvish langauages at all and have no translation abilities whatsoever.

If I can be of any service in research, all one need do is ask. []

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Erm, Hi there.

Are you familiar with the first 5 volumes of HoME?

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Halion
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Welcome to the thread, Grond! I am very happy to have you with us (and on that other board too [] ). HoMe readers seem to be few and far between nowadays among all these pseudo Tolkien fans who only concentrate on the current movie production. []

Now I think it's a good time to ask a few questions to get the discussion going again (it is completely my own fault that hasn't been the case lately):

- Could something be used from HoMe volumes 1-5 without difficulty? I'm thinking especially about the details presented in these older versions, not existing in the later ones but which the Professor forgot about or just didn't want to include due to textual length and style, etc.

- Exactly what parts of the published Silmarillion were not included in HoMe?

- What should be done with Maeglin, The Wanderings of Húrin and the Of the Ruin of Doriath chapter?

- What was the final version of the history of Galadriel, Celeborn and Celebrimbor (and other related characters)?

- When were Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age published in The Silmarillion written by the Professor?

- It is known that the Professor had to compress the LR Appendices due to limitations pressed upon him, and we will attempt to "return" them to the state they would have been in if not for these limitations, by using HoMe 12. But could a similar thing be done with the LR main text, by using HoMe 6-9? (controversial, I know [] )

- Exactly when did the events in Tal-Elmar and The New Shadow published in HoMe 12 happen?

quote:
I was thinking about the name The Legandarium. Im not really sure of an alternative but I am sure we can think of somehting better. Something Elvish possibly, like "Paluriniaur" - The Ancient World or something similar. What d'you think?
quote:
or the Quenta Paluriniaur like the Quenta Silmarillion. It would sound really good. "The tales of the Ancient World" and such things...
Andúril, I don't like The Legendarium either because I think the term actually means the whole collection of historical works of Arda. So works like The Red Book of Westmarch, Quenta Silmarillion, Akallabêth and Narn i Hîn Húrin belong to this collection. But this work will not qualify as one such work; it will be just a re-telling of all the stories in these works (using their content [] ) without the references to various authors and dates of assembling etc. I hope that made sense. [] I could try to explain this a bit better, but I'm not satisfied with the title The Legendarium at all. I think Paluriniaur is better than Quenta Paluriniaur, because this will not be a tale (~historical work).

[ 11-14-2002, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Right, i ahve been looking into the first 5 volumes Maerbenn, but I have been overly busy over the past few weeks and have been unable to think about it much. I shall do a quick summary of titles which might be useful...

HoME 1 =

Cottage of Lost Play? (Controvertial, see other thread, unsure about dating). The rest is rather hard to tell, there are lots of earlier versions of the Silmarillion stories, and I know that many of these tales were produced in Tolkiens early life, whether or not they were discarded or not is up for discussion...

HoME 2 =

Much more detailed than the stories in the Silmarillion. The tales about Eriol at the end of the book would have to go with the Cottage of Lost Play or not at all. One cannot come without the other...

HoME 3 =

A great resourse. Many early lays which were abandoned may have some extra material which could be helpful. They lay of leithian particularly may shed some light on things only touched on in the beren and luthien chapter in the silmarillion...

HoME 4 =

Not so helpful for this project. However, the annals of Valinor and Beleriand may be useful. It has a LOT of first or VERY early writings. The prose fragments might be helpful too.

HoME 5 =

Very good for the stories of the fall of numenor (quite summarised in the Sil, not so here, 3 versions...) Some of the Lost Road stories (rejected? Debateable again). Lots more annals and text relations. And an invaluable early etymology, for elvish texts (of strange and early languages of Beleriand).

Well thats as detailed as i can be at the moment... Any questions on elaboration please ask, and I will do the best I can.

Andúril

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Nash Rómerandir
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Maerbenn,

About the "Ñ" of Ñoldor:

The symbol ~ is called 'Tilde' and is often used in spanish transforming a "straight N" pronounced {n} into a "diphtonged N" pronounced {ni}. If this tilde in JRRT's writing represents the same we should therefore say {nioldor}... []

But usually in JRRT's language, the accentuation symbols just express that the letter should be pronounced as if doubled thus {nnoldor}

The last version being the more plausible...

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Halion
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Thanks Nash, but I now know that the 'Ñ' in Ñoldor should be pronounced as the 'ng' in 'king', for example.
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Dark Lord Andúril
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This for any passing elvish learners would probably be quickly pronounced by softening the following o to make it less prominant, but not silent.
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Like I said in the "Chronology?" thread, I have started converting Nimruzir's timeline, which we are using for the Project, into Excel format.

After this I will begin the long labour of editing The Lord of the Rings.

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