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Minas Tirith Forums » Reference Material » The Legendarium Project (Page 5)
Author Topic: The Legendarium Project
Halion
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Well, what do you guys think about all the other words and names in the mythology that are spellt with a 'c' and pronounced as a 'k' in the published works, for example:

Valacirca, Calaquendi, Celeborn, Cirith Ungol.

Did JRRT regret the spelling of those too, or was it just the spelling of orc he thought was needed to be changed? It seems that he used a 'k' in the earlier drafts of The Lord of the Rings, but did he regret the spelling in the published works at the end of his life?

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Another question:

We are currently incorporating the Gondolin story in The Book of Lost Tales 2, and according to that, Penlod was the tallest, and Rog was the strongest of the Gnomes. Gnomes was Tolkien's early form for the Noldor, but did Tolkien really mean all the Noldor here, or just the Gondolindrim?

[ 07-16-2002, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Isildur of the Númenóreans ]

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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1) I personally wouldn't change the spelling of all the other "c" words to reflect a hard sound. We don't need to spell "city" as "sity" or "cat" as "kat." I think the word orc was a special case and really didn't have anything to do with the sound. That above post was just my off-beat point.
2) I had always assumed the Professor was referring to the Noldor and not just to the citizens of Gondolin. (PS - that's one of my favorite stories!)

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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According to note 31 in 'Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin' in UT, Turgon is 'tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol'. This is certainly written later than the Gondolin story in BoLT 2, and would imply that Turgon is the tallest of both all the Noldor and the Gondolindrim.

And I'm not sure if Rog would be the strongest when there are the likes of Fingolfin and Fëanor around.

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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I'm a bit confused now: was it already in the First Age after the hiding of Valinor impossible for Men to come (or have permission to come) to Valinor?
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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I'm not sure if I follow you, Isildur. Are you referring to the Akabelleth, when there was no longer a straight path to the Undying Lands? If so, that was at the end of the Second Age. Or are you referring to the First Age when the Valar "reinforced" Aman, making the mountains as a defensive fence?

With Men going to Valinor, I find in the Silm only a simple reference that "no Vala came to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor." I was always under the impression that Men were never invited or allowed to the West, but for what reason, I don't know. Also, at the end of the Akabelleth the Professor mentions a rumor that occassionally ocean-going Men that were especially favored were allowed to land on the shores of the Undying Lands before they died.

[ 07-18-2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Thorin ]

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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I was referring to the Hiding of Valinor, when the Enchanted Isles were set. But I think you are right that Men were never allowed to go there.
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Halion
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I have been busy trying to incorporate the notorious Myths Transformed material in Morgoth's Ring into the Legendarium (some very valuable posts on another message board by Nimruzir and others have been very helpful), and surprisingly I haven't really run into any problems until now.

The narrative in text II seems to end just before Melkor assails Tilion:
quote:
So much is known to the Wise, that Tilion — [sic] and that Melkor was filled with new wrath at the rising of the Moon. Therefore for a while he left Ambar again and went out into the Outer Night, and gathered to him some of those spirits who would answer his call.
JRRT's foregoing discussion tells us:
quote:
But Melkor gathered in the Void spirits of cold &c. and suddenly assailed it, driving out the Vala Tilion.8 The Moon was thereafter long while steerless and vagrant and called Rana (neuter).
Note 8 looks like this:
quote:
In AAm (p. 131, §172) and in QS (§75) Tilion was no Vala, but 'a young hunter of the company of Oromë'. In AAm §179 appears the story that Morgoth assailed Tilion, 'sending spirits of shadow against him', but unavailingly.
Both Myths Transformed and The Annals of Aman seem to be written in 1958.

I was thinking about using that passage from AAm about Tilion being 'a hunter of the company of Oromë', to get some background for Tilion when he is chosen to steer the Moon, but I don't think Oromë had any Valar in his company, just Maiar. So the passages don't fit very well together. But because Tilion is described as a Vala in Myths Transformed, I think I will have to accept that and drop the AAm passage.

Any thoughts?

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Eldorian
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I wonder if on words like Cirith Ungol wheather there was meant to be an accent?
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Halion
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What do you mean by accent, Lynora/Lynoran?

Do you mean that Cirith Ungol perhaps has evolved from Círith Ungol or what?

I have been pondering the c/k spelling some more and I wonder:
Why did JRRT really choose to spell these words with a 'c' instead of 'k' when the pronunciation of 'c' is very unclear without reading any of the Professor's notes?

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Eldorian
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Yeah something like that idea. You know how french use an accented a like this á to signify a hard A then it could of been something like this.
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Lhunithiliel
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Well, people,
First of all, I'd like to say that before I came to Minas Tirith Forum, Tolkien books were for me just an amazing story and Silmarillion, in particular, I found as the most beautiful legend about the creation of the world that I had ever read!
These books, however, opened a new world to me, but now that I have read here all those wise things, bits of information, analyses and opinions, I feel as if I know completely NOTHING!
After having read the books twice (all that are available on our market) now I see that there are a LOT of other written materials that I have never heard of. On the other hand, I was thinking to sit down one day, take the books that I have available and some maps downloaded from the Internet and try to put some order especially about names of people (actually of all creatures)and places. It is because I get confused with all of them, mentioned in various places and in various languages and various variants...

My point is that I APPLAUSE the Legendarium Project as I understand that it is being implemented by true "scholars"....
Yet, I just wanted to ask:
Wouldn't it be nice and helpful to make it possible, when a name of a place or a creature comes up in the story - to make sort of a link to the basic story this name is related to?
Maybe I express myself not quite well, but here is an example:
In the LOTR - book, when Aragorn takes the Hobbits to Amon Sun (I'm not sure if this is the right spelling! I still haven't got the books in English but I'll soon have them!), then I remembered that I had read about this somewhere in the Silmarillion, so I had to open the other book, look through the pages in order to find out about that watch tower of the ancient kingdom; then I returned to the main story in the LOTR, but all of this took time and caused confusion.
Another example:
Tolkien describes the scenery of the events in much details and often defining the exact location, but when I read these bits, I run to my computer, open the downloaded maps and start looking for the place described....

I hope you have understood my point.
And I believe that this would not be difficult to be done in an electronic version of the Project, right?

Finally, when it is finished, I would be one of those "ineterested" to have it. You can count on this!!!

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Halion
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Lynora/Lynoran, I do not know much about French, but JRRT uses accented vocals to signify long vocal sounds, not short ones.

Lhunithiliel, thank you very much for your long and interesting post!

I am very happy that you seem to have "discovered" something new when reading this thread. I wish The History of Middle-earth series would be more popular, the great experience of reading Tolkien doesn't have to end with The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, and it shouldn't.

Thanks for the compliment, but I don't consider myself a "scholar" in the way people like Michael Martinez, Nimruzir and Fingolfin of the Noldor (where are you? [] ) are, just a hardcore fan. I have only been into Tolkien for a couple of years, but I spend a LOT of my spare time learning more about Tolkien's works (reading the books, working on the Legendarium Project, surfing the Internet), so I think this is a very "natural" project for me to work on.

I understand your point; confusion is one of the major "threats" to having a good time when reading Tolkien, and the names of people and places are often the source for it. Since the project started, I have always thought about getting the finished product printed at a local printing company, so I have based my decisions and problem solutions on this fact. I have planned to include an index at the end of the book, which I think will be huge considering how much material it will cover. This index will be useful when you get confused, because you will be able to find all the canonical information written by JRRT on a subject. But all sorts of things are possible with an electronical copy, and your proposal is very interesting. I have the project in Microsoft Word format at the moment, and the "links" could perhaps be implemented using the "Note" function or some other way, I'm not an expert on Word. [] But I want to try to avoid having a database like The Encyclopedia of Arda, I will concentrate on providing a canonical text consisting of narrative written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself (covering the whole mythology) as much as possible.

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Lhunithiliel
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THANK YOU, MAERBENN!!!
You've been so kind!
See, I was right! - Whenever I visit this Forum I learn smth new! I have never before come accross the "Encyclopedia of Arda" and now, THANKS TO YOU!, I have it enlisted in my Favourites! I shall study it very carefully now , as I see it is what I was intending to do. Now, why bother if some other much wiser people than my "personna" have already done it and I can only enjoy their work! (nasty me!)
BOWS! to you!!!!
As for your Project, even in the text version that you are planning it, you can STILL count on my interest in having a copy of it!
So, don't forget me and if I can be of any help, please, you are welcome any time..... Although, how could possibly I be of any help to you?!

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Eldorian
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True but if you look in Appendice E at the back of RoTK then you will find cirith runes so perhaps that is where the idea of a hard c came from.
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Lhunithiliel
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Maerbenn, how is the Project going?
I thought about it.... well I'm thinking very often about it, and here what I would like to suggest:
You are not going to put titles or subtitles - just paragraphs. Then why not marking the beginning of each main story by some sort of a sign?
You know, like in the old books the first letter of the paragraph... ? It will look cool!
I'll try to make an example of what I'm having in mind and send it to you........if you do not object! []
And another thing, are you going to include maps in the index at the end of the book? It would be helpfull!
And finally, don't you think it would be fine to include some illustrations in the story?

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Halion
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quote:
Maerbenn, how is the Project going?
Well, I work on it almost every day, and the First Age has now taken a form which I think doesn't differ so much from what it will look like when it's finished. But I have had to go back and change a lot because of the Myths Transformed material. Isildur of the Númenóreans has done a lot of work on the Second and Third Ages.
quote:
I thought about it.... well I'm thinking very often about it
This strengthens my motivation a lot. []
quote:
You are not going to put titles or subtitles - just paragraphs. Then why not marking the beginning of each main story by some sort of a sign?
You know, like in the old books the first letter of the paragraph... ? It will look cool!

I have thought some more about this, and I think I will put chapter names in there after all, but without spoilers; I have to edit many of them (suggestions welcome [] ).
quote:
I'll try to make an example of what I'm having in mind and send it to you........if you do not object!
No, I don't object at all. []
quote:
And another thing, are you going to include maps in the index at the end of the book? It would be helpfull!
I think I will do this, yes. But I'm not sure which maps to use, I will have to think closely about that.
quote:
And finally, don't you think it would be fine to include some illustrations in the story?
This is one of my newer ideas. I have seen scans on the Internet of a lot of the absolutely breathtaking Tolkien art which has been produced over the years, but there is a big problem with these paintings; they represent their artist's impression, not Tolkien's own. Of course, a big part of fantasy literature is that you should imagine things and places when you read, but I think it has gone a little bit too far if you can spot very obvious "mistakes" in the paintings, like dark hair on a character when it should be blonde, for example. [] So I have made up my mind pretty firmly about this: I will only use illustrations by JRRT himself (mainly from the books Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien and J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator), but only those that don't contradict the text. So I will have to do some research on that. [] Including illustrations will make the finished Legendarium represent JRRT better than not including any, because he was a writer and illustrator. And of course, I will place the illustrations in the text in a way so that they don't spoil the story. []

[ 07-30-2002, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

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Lhunithiliel
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Maerbenn, thank you that you have noticed my post and been so kind as to answer it []
You know, it is a very good idea to include chapter titles, after all! There will be some order of the narration and it will be more convenient to find out some particular parts in the text.
Unfortunately, being a foreigner and not a native English speaker, I don't quite well understand what you mean by "spoilers". Anyway, it must be smth. that could possibly "spoil" the outlook of the work, isn't it?!
And having a chapter title, it would look so nice if the first letter of the first paragraph of each chapter is some sort of an artistic drawing (just as the title itself, too!), not just an ordinary capital letter, don't you think? I'll try to make up an example and send it to you by e-mail, although I don't have too much resource available. At least I can give you an idea of what I mean.
As for the ilustrations, YES! It is splendid that you have also thought of including them in the text!And of course, J.R.R.T.'s are ones of the best! But I have seen some by other artists and they are GOOD! I guess you there have a lot more resources to pick up from! Internet, too, provides a lot of this stuff - this is where I saw the drawings. On the other hand, some pics. from the movies will do well, too. I remember when in high school I watched the film "The Great Gatsby" and I liked it so much that I went to the library to look for the book. The cover of the book was decorated with a picture from the film!I understand it is not a very good idea, but if picked up carefully, the result from using a movie picture might be OK!
Maps? - well, there are various collections of them and most representing not only the ME - both, general maps of the whole territory AND detailed maps of certain parts of the ME where the most important events took place. I have also downloaded some very good detailed maps of the lands of Manwe and the Elves + of the ME..
And I'm sure there are more maps about the events in "The Hobbit", as well... So, this is not going to be tough at all! It would be helpfull a lot!
Finally, what have you decided about the book itself - is it going to be printed or just an electronic version or both?
Thaks again for your time!
I'll keep in touch []

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Halion
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quote:
You know, it is a very good idea to include chapter titles, after all! There will be some order of the narration and it will be more convenient to find out some particular parts in the text.
Well, chapterisation is one thing, and chapter naming is one step further, but I think I will use chapter names too.

quote:
Unfortunately, being a foreigner and not a native English speaker, I don't quite well understand what you mean by "spoilers". Anyway, it must be smth. that could possibly "spoil" the outlook of the work, isn't it?!
I'm not a native English speaker either. [] A spoiler is in this case (as far as I know, someone correct me if I'm wrong) a passage of text which simply tells you what will happen in the story before it happens, and chapter names in books can often be very spoiling. I have tried to explain the reasons for removing spoilers earlier in this thread.

quote:
And having a chapter title, it would look so nice if the first letter of the first paragraph of each chapter is some sort of an artistic drawing (just as the title itself, too!), not just an ordinary capital letter, don't you think? I'll try to make up an example and send it to you by e-mail, although I don't have too much resource available. At least I can give you an idea of what I mean.
Yes, feel free to send it to me, this sounds like an excellent idea. The text would look very dull without this kind of typographical artistry.

quote:
As for the ilustrations, YES! It is splendid that you have also thought of including them in the text!And of course, J.R.R.T.'s are ones of the best! But I have seen some by other artists and they are GOOD! I guess you there have a lot more resources to pick up from! Internet, too, provides a lot of this stuff - this is where I saw the drawings. On the other hand, some pics. from the movies will do well, too. I remember when in high school I watched the film "The Great Gatsby" and I liked it so much that I went to the library to look for the book. The cover of the book was decorated with a picture from the film!I understand it is not a very good idea, but if picked up carefully, the result from using a movie picture might be OK!
Well, I really think that only one artist should be represented, or else there will be a mix of different styles. The combined effect of Tolkien's writings and illustrations will be very nice. I don't like the idea of including pictures from the movies, because I think they would "pop out" too much and "steal the show", and they represent Peter Jackson's vision like drawings from other artists represent their respective artist's vision.

quote:
Maps? - well, there are various collections of them and most representing not only the ME - both, general maps of the whole territory AND detailed maps of certain parts of the ME where the most important events took place. I have also downloaded some very good detailed maps of the lands of Manwe and the Elves + of the ME..
And I'm sure there are more maps about the events in "The Hobbit", as well... So, this is not going to be tough at all! It would be helpfull a lot!

I have discussed the issue of maps with Isildur and he thinks we should use only those maps that were approved by Tolkien himself. But there are many maps that are almost identical to those but look better, so why not use them? But if we want to have a world map I don't think we can go for those that have been published in The Atlas of Middle-earth, because they were of course not approved by Tolkien and contain many things that the artist had to interpret. Perhaps the only world map we can think of using is map V of The Ambarkanta published in The History of Middle-earth Volume 4: The Shaping of Middle-earth.

quote:
Finally, what have you decided about the book itself - is it going to be printed or just an electronic version or both?
I have decided that I will try to get it printed for myself. The high page count may become a problem. [] But in any case, I will of course have an electronical version too. This version could then be improved by adding some neat functions not possible with a printed version, like some sort of database-like functions and better indexing for example.
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Lhunithiliel
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A few hours ago I sent you an e-mail with two *.cpt files attached. Did you get it?
If yes, what do you think about it? ... And don't spare me your criticism [] !
And AGAIN! thank you for answering! []

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Halion
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Yes, I got the e-mail, but I've got problems opening the files. Are they PC color pointer image data files?
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Lhunithiliel
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Oh, I knew it! Sorry! []

I'll try to do smth. and send them again. The files are Corel Photo Paint - type. It seems they are inappropriate to be transmitted in this format. I'll try transform them into *.jpg. []

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Halion
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Well, why not choose a format with non-lossy compression like PNG instead?
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Eldorian
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Cirith Runes are very interesting actually, I've found out the S rune and the N rune. I think that you should include a Rune guide as well to add extra content into the Legendarium Project.
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Halion
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I'm sorry for not answering this earlier, Lynora/Lynoran:
quote:
True but if you look in Appendice E at the back of RoTK then you will find cirith runes so perhaps that is where the idea of a hard c came from.
Well, it's cirth runes, not cirith runes. Both are Sindarin, and according to this excellent Sindarin Dictionary, cirth is the plural of certh which means "rune", and cirith means "cleft, high climbing pass, narrow passage cut through earth or rock". What are you trying to say?

I will think about including other kinds of "appendices" than maps, and rune tables may be one of them, but the text is of course the main point of this project.

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