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Minas Tirith Forums » Reference Material » The Legendarium Project (Page 4)
Author Topic: The Legendarium Project
Eldorian
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I'll agree with that. It's fine by me. It is after all what you are working on.
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Halion
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I have now tried to compile a list of interesting essays written by J.R.R. Tolkien from the Vinyar Tengwar contents page that could be used in this project:

#6, June 1989 (16 pp.):
"Narqelion"

#39, July 1998 (36 pp.):
"From Quendi and Eldar, Appendix D"
"Ósanwe-kenta: 'Enquiry into the Communication of Thought'"

#40, April 1999 (36 pp.):
"Narqelion" (facsimile)

#41, July 2000 (40 pp.):
"Etymological Notes on the Ósanwe-kenta"
"From The Shibboleth of Fëanor"
"Notes on Óre"

#42, July 2001 (40 pp.):
The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor

Does anyone know if I should get all of these, or are some of them (for example, purely linguistical ones) not needed for this project?

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Telperion
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I know very little about linguistics in M-E, but out of pure curiosity, what does "shibboleth" stand for?
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Halion
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I found this on the Words in English: The Story of the Shibboleth page with Google:
quote:
A shibboleth is a kind of linguistic password: A way of speaking (a pronunciation, or the use of a particular expression) that identifies one as a member of an 'in' group. The purpose of a shibboleth is exclusionary as much as inclusionary: A person whose way of speaking violates a shibboleth is identified as an outsider and thereby excluded by the group.
quote:
The word shibboleth in ancient Hebrew dialects meant 'ear of grain' (or, some say, 'stream').

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Telperion
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quote:
The word shibboleth in ancient Hebrew dialects meant 'ear of grain'
Yes that was what caught my eye. Its the same in modern Hebrew (there are only small differences between ancient and modern Hebrew).

Thanks.

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Nimruzir
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Maerbenn,

These are the ones I would also suggest in addition to your list:

#6
"A Brief Note on the Background of the Letter from J.R.R. Tolkien to Dick Plotz Concerning the Declension of the High-elvish Noun" - Jorge Quinonez.

#7
"Full Chart of the Tengwar " - Edouard Kloczko.

#14
"The Elves at Koivieneni: A New Quenya Sentence" - analysis by Christopher Gilson and Patrick Wynne.

#21
"'Si man i-yulmar n(g)win enquatuva': A Newly-Discovered Tengwar Inscription" - analysis by Carl Hostetter.

#26
"Ugluk to the Dung-pit" - analysis by Carl Hostetter.

#27
"Trees of Silver and of Gold: A Guide to the Koivieneni Manuscript" - Patrick Wynne and Christopher Gilson.

#28
"The Bodleian Declensions" - Analysis by Christopher Gilson, Patrick Wynne, and Carl F. Hostetter

#29
"The Tengwar Versions of the 'King's Letter'" - An Analysis by Arden R. Smith.

#36
"Marquette University MS Tolkien 3/8/2:5 verso" - facsimile.

#36
"The Entu, Ensi, Enta Declension" - Christopher Gilson.

#37
"The Túrin Prose Fragments: An Analysis of a Rúmilian Document" - Arden R. Smith.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"The prime motive [of LotR] was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them. As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving, and for many the guide was inevitably often at fault."

J.R.R. Tolkien - Prologue to The Lord of the Rings.

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Halion
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But aren't many of those linguistical, Nimruzir? Should/Can I use them despite of that?
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Eldorian
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Maerbenn I think you should use them if they are not protected by copyright.
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Roll of Honor Marcho Blackwood - MSS
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And, as previously pointed out, all of these items and all of the works of Tolkien are copyrighted. Which means they can't be published/distributed by anyone other then the copyright holder.
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Halion
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I understand, Marcho. But could you please help me with the project itself too, by trying to answer the still unanswered questions in this thread? []
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Eldorian
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Really Marcho, looks like I do slightly illegal things then. Tut tut I'm very naughty. But I don't care.
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Halion
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This was originally a part of a PM to Ulairi, it may shed some additional light on the project:

When I first became familiar with the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, I was very enthusiastic and it was as though a whole world was waiting for me (it was). Later, I learned about Christopher Tolkien's The History of Middle-earth series, and I got to know more about Tolkien on the Internet.

I understood that he wasn't the perfect author in a sense after all (I never really thought so [] ): together, the stories about his created world form a remarkable mythology, but also a complete chaos of revisions, contradictions and even mistakes, by both the Professor himself and his son Christopher. So now I'm trying to put it all together neatly, to enhance my knowledge of Tolkien's creative process and most importantly, my reading pleasure.

I have a couple of friends, who have never read any fantasy literature, but who have shown an interest in reading atleast The Lord of the Rings, because they liked the movie, but also because of the great reputation of the book [] . I also have some friends who have read alot of fantasy books, but I have the feeling that they have sadly never really "immersed" themselves properly in Tolkien's world, instead they have just gone on with other fantasy authors. []

So I thought that they should be given a chance to do that, but at the same time to avoid having to peruse and study the more "scholarly" works like The History of Middle-earth series and Letters (because I don't think they would have the ambition to do that [] ). So I intend to give them something that makes it possible for them to follow the whole story of Tolkien's Legendarium (I hate it when someone has read just The Lord of the Rings and dismiss the other works), without losing an awful lot of hair. []

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Quendil
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You have a new e-mail, Maerbenn!
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Eldorian
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Well I'm a tolkien studier and love to find out more about his works. You know the Dwarves song in the hobbit? I've got the notes down on the flute for it. It took me quite a while to get the tune right and every thing but this is as close as it comes so if you would like a copy then I don't mind sending a recording of it to you via email if that is alright by you for it might add some interest to your project.
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Quendil
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I have made a screenshot of a titlepage (word-doc) I made for this project. I sent the file to Maerbenn.


[ 07-06-2002, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: Quendil ]

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Halion
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Mirithan, I appreciate your offer very much, but I will not need any musical notes for this project, this will just be literature (consisting of text and perhaps some pictures). But of course, I would nevertheless be very interested in seeing (or actually hearing) your work. []

And Quendil, your screenshot isn't visible in the browser because it links to a bitmap (BMP) image, which isn't supported in browsers. I think you have to convert it to a JPEG image and change the link accordingly to get it to work.

[ 07-05-2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

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Quendil
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If the pic doesn't display, simply go to

Legendarium Cover

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Eldorian
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I just have a bit more tweaking to do to get it recorded onto sound recorder and try it out on the different effects then it should be ready to rock. How annoying can parents get? I don't flipping well belive she has unplugged the microphone. Grrr

[ 07-06-2002, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: Mirithan ]

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Halion
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I decided to post the image myself (converted to a black & white GIF file to save space), because the link Quendil provided doesn't seem to work if you click on it in this thread... (not his fault)


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Quendil
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Thanx Maerbenn!
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Halion
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Now I have a couple of suggestions for you, Quendil.

I think what you should be aiming for is the "title page" (which is usually the second page inside the cover), not the cover itself, because I am not sure if the printer (a company) I intend to use will print anything on the cover.

So try to look in an English edition of The Lord of the Rings or preferably The Silmarillion (because it is edited by Christopher Tolkien), and see what that page is like. I would like to have a page with a similar style like this (it is from my HarperCollins paperback edition of The Silmarillion):



So for instance, "The Silmarillion" should be replaced by "The Legendarium".

Of course, if you or anyone else has a better idea, feel free to express yourself. []

[ 07-06-2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

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Eldorian
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I actually like that idea, I mean it looks like something to do with Tolkien. No disrespect to Quendil, of course.
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Halion
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I have wondered about the spelling of the word orc.

Most people are used to spell it like it is spelled in The Silmarillion and in The Lord of the Rings, orc. But it seems to me that Tolkien changed his mind about the spelling in later years; he intended to use ork in future publications:

Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed section, text IX:
quote:
The Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word or words with a base (o)rok to denote anything that caused fear and/or horror. It would originally have been applied to 'phantoms' (spirits assuming visible forms) as well as to any independently existing creatures. Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks - so I shall spell it in The Silmarillion — was later.
Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed section, text X:
quote:
Orcs
This spelling was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning - so far as that is known - is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a Common Speech form of a word or group of similar words should be ork. If only because of spelling difficulties in modern English: an adjective orc + ish becomes necessary, and orcish will not do. In any future publication I shall use ork.

So I think I will use ork throughout the Legendarium. Any comments?
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Personally, I like "orc" better than "ork," but that is only because I'm used to the former. I had wondered about those passages you posted, because as we know the "c" is a hard "c" in most (all?) elvish words (and elvish-inspired words?). So "Celeborn" would be pronounced "Keleborn." I didn't understand the Professor's wanting to change the spelling of orc. And I certainly am no expert. But it's pretty clear he meant to, and if that's what you want, by all means do it. After all, we learned to replace Mao Tse-tung with Mao Zedong, didn't we?
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Eldorian
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I prefer orc spelt as ork as when it is spelt as ork you think to pronounce the K harder then usual and I don't think that J.R.R Tolkien wanted that some how.
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