Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 
Minas Tirith Forums » Reference Material » The Legendarium Project (Page 2)
Author Topic: The Legendarium Project
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Because I think that most people don't like the idea of removing the chapter and book names.
Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eldorian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2113

posted      Profile for Eldorian   Author's Homepage   Email Eldorian   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Right I get you now. Still think that the title's cool. (RE first post)
From: Wizard land though I'm most often found in the V.O.E | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Bethberry
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1217

posted      Profile for Bethberry   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Maerbenn,

I hope you don't mind if I pose some reservations about a project like this, at least when it is conceived as representing Tolkien's intentions.

First of all, perhaps you should think a little bit about the difference between 'spoiler' and literary foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is a way to push readers into a more active state, making them think ahead. It has a long and venerable place in the history of story-telling and to remove it is to destroy elements of Tolkien's art as a story-teller.

Second, the entire concept of creating an ultimate version of the mythology is misguided to my mind. Tolkien did not produce any ultimate metanarrative. Even The Silm as we have it is questionable because of Christopher Tolkien's revisionary writing tactics--a point which CT has admitted himself.

Much as readers might want a final 'true' version, the fact is that Tolkien's work was produced over a long stretch of time. To collapse the differences that arise from this fact is to create an artificial, even false, view of what he was about. His own acts of discovery and invention are essential components in who he is as an author and in even in the mythology itself. No matter how faithfully the revisionist followed comments from Tolkien, ultimately, the text produced would be the text of the revisionist, not of Tolkien.

Literary history cannot be overwritten. The gaps, changes, revisions which Tolkien made are fundamental to his identity as an author and to the development of the mythology. To change that is to falsify his work. JMHO. This doesn't mean you wouldn't have fun doing the project, just that the resulting text would not be 'Tolkien', but yours.

Respectfully,
Bethberry

[ 06-13-2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

From: the Bonfire Glade in the Old Forest | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

posted      Profile for Lugbúrz   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Greetings Bethberry,

I agree with your reservations about such an exercise. But what I have more grevious reservations about is the suggestion that such a collection (with editings) be the first thing a person should read when he reads Tolkien.

Moves rather beyond the reservations that some have about even allowing The Silmarillion as permissible Tolkien material (or for that matter even the Hobbit [] )

If anything it must be a collection that one must peruse after having read all of Tolkien's original works.

It may be that Tolkien proposed to write or compile such a Legendarium, but the fact remains he did not do it. Whether he had no time or his untimely death or for other reasons is debatable but to proceed to try and compile one after he is no more and furthermore edit his works calls for a lifetime, if not more of study into his works and his psyche.

It may make a great project and grow into something worth the time but it will never be the ultimate way to read Tolkien for me.

Best of luck!

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Bethberry
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1217

posted      Profile for Bethberry   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well, Lug, just as long as you don't exclude The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, I'm with you. []

You're right also, that nothing can replace an author's original texts. I doubt, however, that any critic, no matter how well versed in the author, the works, and all manner of relevant pursuits, would ever be able to produce an 'authentic' version or canon which represented Tolkien's ultimate intention. It would be the kind of project which could well drive the critic to the dark depths of, um, dungeons and underground dwellings. []

It would have to be acknowledged and recognized as a palimpsest. That's the heart of my point. It wouldn't be Tolkien.

Bb

[ 06-13-2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

From: the Bonfire Glade in the Old Forest | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

posted      Profile for Lugbúrz   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Maerbenn,

I just noticed your altered thread name. Almost certainly prompted from my feelings!

I hope our criticism only drives you to up your efforts at creating a canon of Tolkien's works. It is a task only the brave and knowledgable will undertake and I hope it provides you with an enjoyable hobby. It is from the deep and dark places of the world where one can find their true destiny. []

I would be very interested in perusing this compilation.

Regards,

Lug

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I hereby announce that I have joined Maerbenn in his project. []
From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Imbëar
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 729
posted      Profile for Imbëar   Author's Homepage   Email Imbëar   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Maerbenn,
my only requisite for this project is that your intentions be clear and clean.
First, what do you plan to do with this mass of literature? Similarly, what are your plans for distribution?

As you know, Tolkien was attempting an illuminated version of his mythological tome.
To this purpose alone I acquiesce.

I think it a wonderful idea to compile, organize, and, most importantly, to bind in an appropriate leather cover the full writings of Tolkien. Producing a single magical volume would be an impressive addition to any reading room.

Imbëar

From: Auburn, CA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I try to explain it in another way. This is what Isildur of the Númenóreans and I will try do with the literature, in perhaps not the best order:
  1. Edit The Silmarillion so that it includes the longer Unfinished Tales version (instead of the shorter Silmarillion version) of those stories that exist in both works. By editing I mean mostly copying, cutting and pasting sentences, paragraphs and chapters.
  2. Fix the mistakes Christopher Tolkien has admitted that he made when he edited his version of The Silmarillion, by using his The History of Middle-earth series. This, I think, should include adding some stories from the series that don't exist in any of the "main" works, and also replacing some stories in The Silmarillion of which there is a "better" (what's better is very debatable) version in The History of Middle-earth series.
  3. Add the canonical (also debatable) works The Adventures of Tom Bomdadil, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings to the Legendarium.
  4. Move those parts of the appendices of The Lord of the Rings that tells the reader something that isn't told anywhere else to the correct place. This is also very debatable because the appendices have a distinct narrative style.
  5. Even more debatable: Try to remove or edit some sentences in The Hobbit that are very childish (because JRRT regretted that he wrote the book in that kind of style) and also some parts or sentences that could be considered "non-canonical", for example references to the game of golf, talking trolls and so on.
  6. Even more debatable: Remove or edit the "self-spoiling" and foreshadowing elements of the Legendarium. This includes removing all chapter and book names, and the space between chapters; only the paragraphs are distinguishable, where a new book or chapter should start, there is just a new paragraph. I have already tried to express some of the reasons for this, but another reason is this: The Silmarillion has another kind of narrative style than the other works, it is more like a history book. I don't find that very disturbing in itself, but The Lord of the Rings for example, is written in a perhaps more fashionable and commercial style. So if you add all the works and stories together in a complete Legendarium, I really think that the narrative style should be as consistent as possible throughout the whole text. And because rewriting parts will surely result in a text which is far from anything JRRT himself would have written, the best thing I can do to achieve a consistent style is to remove or edit the foreshadowing elements (particularly in The Silmarillion), because I think the style would be a little more consistent in that way.
I hope that this makes the whole thing clearer and that I haven't forgotten something now...

[ 06-29-2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eldorian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2113

posted      Profile for Eldorian   Author's Homepage   Email Eldorian   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I'm with you to maerbenn.
From: Wizard land though I'm most often found in the V.O.E | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well, how familiar are you with the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, Mirithan?

[ 06-14-2002, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Imbëar
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 729
posted      Profile for Imbëar   Author's Homepage   Email Imbëar   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Don't touch the Hobbit.
Or you will be destroyed.

Imbëar

From: Auburn, CA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Could you please explain why, Imbëar?
Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eldorian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2113

posted      Profile for Eldorian   Author's Homepage   Email Eldorian   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Quite familar. Read LoTR, Simarillion, The unfinshed tales, and The hobbit.
From: Wizard land though I'm most often found in the V.O.E | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Do you seriously want to join us in this project, Mirithan? I think you have a rather bad reputation on this site already... []
Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Londier
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2228
posted      Profile for Londier   Email Londier   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Hey, I think your project is awesome and I'm for everything your going to do. Is there any way of us seeing the finished project on the internet or something? I'm doing a project myself but it is not with the books, it's with the movies. I have the script to the movie and I'm writing it in book format, and I'll add the other two when I get those. I'm also writing the hobbit in a more realistic way as one would see it in the movies...I know this isn't Tolkien and all but I'm doing it completely for myself, so don't kill me.
From: ... | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Do you really agree with all those points above, Liam? []
Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Londier
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2228
posted      Profile for Londier   Email Londier   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
of course, it's a great idea. I wonder how big it will be.
From: ... | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Currently, it's 1132 pages, with page size A4, Times New Roman as font and 12 as font size. Silmarillion, TH and LOTR are already in there (they need some editing though), along with some stuff from UT and the appendices in LOTR.

[ 06-15-2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Isildur of the Númenóreans ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Quendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1661

posted      Profile for Quendil   Email Quendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
This is a great idea! *claps hands, APPLAUSE*

I would like to help, because i spend all my time with Tolkien, but I'm from Germany. I don't think I could help much!

Another question:
Where do you get the material for this project? I mean, where do you download the texts? I have all of Tolkiens books from the "tolkien.ru"-page, but the HOME-series I downloaded there is really out of order. I had to correct the numbers of the lines for the poems, because they were at the end of the text.

[ 06-15-2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Quendil ]

From: Japan | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, the HoME-series at tolkien.ru is a bit out of order, but we have nice e-books of the rest of the books.

[ 06-15-2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Isildur of the Númenóreans ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Quendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1661

posted      Profile for Quendil   Email Quendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Oh no, this was going to be one of the greatest projects on MT.
From: Japan | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Quendil, I didn't mean to abandon the project, I just have to come up with another way to distribute it to those who are interested, I can't do it publicly on the web.
Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Quendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1661

posted      Profile for Quendil   Email Quendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Maerbenn,why don't you just publish it in a zip-file which is protected by a password like the ones on the "tolkien.ru"-page. You remember? : The password was tolkien
From: Japan | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
And then give the password by PM only to those who are interested? That sounds like a good idea... what do you say about that, Lugbúrz?
Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Reference Material » The Legendarium Project (Page 2)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1