quote:You're telling me-- I'm researching arguments to have newbs dish it with idle nonsense.
So we see, Witchking is sort of an arrogant type; that was uncalled-for, man. Do you only care about your own arguments?
Registered: Nov 2005
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As Prince Imrahil's quotes show (and there are others that can be added, but I think it is unnecessary) Men were meant to be lesser than the Eldar, both physically and mentally.
I don't understand why you keep harping on about us making you see it only 'our way.' We're simply trying to answer the question as Tolkien intended.
quote:What is special about Beren being able to throttle and kill Curufin; Gollum could've done that, no?
Gollum? Sorry, not a chance.
[ 04-07-2008, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]
From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Also, in The Simarillion," Tolkien talks about Elves being made of the stuff of the earth but not men.
I would be amazed to read the quote where this is said
quote:Which implies that Elves grow stronger over time.
Actually, this is the opposite : their spirit consuming their body, the body grow weaker over time
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006
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quote: Also, in "The Simarillion," Tolkien talks about Elves being made of the stuff of the earth but not men.
I would be amazed to read the quote where this is said
Here it is:
quote: Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies were of the stuff of Earth... Of Men, The Silmarillion
quote: Actually, this is the opposite : their spirit consuming their body, the body grow weaker over time
I'll give you that this may have been a misinterpretation on my part, but (and you may not have been aiming directly at this issue) I'm still of the belief that at least generally, Elves were stronger than Men.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that the "but not men" part only refers to the fact that Tolkien did not say (in that part of the story at least) Men were of the stuff of Earth, just that he did say Elves were. I also shouldn't have used the word "made" since it sounds more literal than I intended/the book stated.
[ 04-07-2008, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Prince Imrahil ]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.
-Minas Tirith
From: Dor-En-Ernil, Belfalas (by way of VA) | Registered: May 2006
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quote:EDIT: I forgot to mention that the "but not men" part only refers to the fact that Tolkien did not say (in that part of the story at least) Men were of the stuff of Earth, just that he did say Elves were. I also shouldn't have used the word "made" since it sounds more literal than I intended/the book stated.
Men were made of the "stuff" of the Earth as well.
quote:'That I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hröar and their sustenance therefrom...' --Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
quote:'You claim, if you fully understand your own words, to have had imperishable bodies, not bounded by the limits of Arda, and yet derived from its matter and sustained by it.'--Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
[ 04-07-2008, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]
From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: Men were made of the "stuff" of the Earth as well.
I actually meant to say "not" of the stuff of Earth. Sorry for all the mistakes (just went running so I was a little delirious.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.
-Minas Tirith
From: Dor-En-Ernil, Belfalas (by way of VA) | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Ditto That's one of the main points of the Athrabeth, in relation with the Mannish belief.
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006
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quote: Were Men of the Elder Days some sort of muscular super-men compared to later Men?
Well, actually, maybe. I think we do have some proof of the decline of Men over time.
quote:The Numenorean ranga [pace] was slightly longer than our yard, approximately thirty-eight inches, owing to their great stature… Account has to be taken both of the great stature of the Numenoreans… Thus two rangar was often called "man-high," which at thirty-eight inches gives an average height of six feet four inches; but this was at a later date, when the stature of the Dunedain appears to have decreased, and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the observed average of male stature among them, but was an approximate length expressed in the well-known unit ranga… It is however said of the great people of the past that they were more than a man-high. Elendil was said to be “more than man-high by nearly half a ranga;” but he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escape the Downfall (and was indeed generally known as Elendil the Tall). The Eldar of the Elder Days were also very tall. Galadriel, “the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell,” was said to be man-high, but it is noted “according to the measure of the Dunedain and the men of old,” indicating a height of about six feet four inches.
Numenorean Linear Measures, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, UT emphasis mine
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Yet the Numenoreans grew even taller and stronger than the Edain of the First Age:
quote:This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars. But their numbers increased only slowly in the land, for though daughters and sons were born to them, fairer than their fathers, yet their children were few. [...]Thus the years passed, and while Middle-earth went backward and light and wisdom faded, the Dúnedain dwelt under the protection of the Valar and in the friendship of the Eldar, and they increased in stature both of mind and body.- Akkalabeth
posted
Most interesting find, Thorin! Let's calculate:
quote:The Numenorean ranga [pace] was slightly longer than our yard, approximately thirty-eight inches, owing to their great stature… Account has to be taken both of the great stature of the Numenoreans… Thus two rangar was often called "man-high," which at thirty-eight inches gives an average height of six feet four inches; but this was at a later date, when the stature of the Dunedain appears to have decreased, and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the observed average of male stature among them, but was an approximate length expressed in the well-known unit ranga… It is however said of the great people of the past that they were more than a man-high. Elendil was said to be “more than man-high by nearly half a ranga;” but he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escape the Downfall (and was indeed generally known as Elendil the Tall). The Eldar of the Elder Days were also very tall. Galadriel, “the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell,” was said to be man-high, but it is noted “according to the measure of the Dunedain and the men of old,” indicating a height of about six feet four inches.
So here we have it:
Man-high = 76" 1 ranga = 38" 1/2 ranga = 19"
Therefore, Elendil was "man high + nearly half a rangar"
= 76" + 18"
= 94" = 7'10" tall!
(This explains how he was able to wrestle with Sauron).
Aragorn, likwise, was said to be "tall as the sea-kings of old," who were Elendil, Isildur and Anárion; so this would give some indication that he was in that range as well.
Even if their mother was of normal Númenórean height, Isildur and Anárion would be about halfway between 6'4" and 7'10", or around 7'1" apiece.
Since Aragorn was also described as being tall as they were-- i.e. "tall as the sea-kings of old--" then he'd be about the same height, or about 7 feet tall. Boromir likewise was also described as being "little less in height," so he could have been 6'8" or more.
This helps explain why orcs fled from the sight of Isildur and Boromir alike, while likewise Legolas was also supposed to be "tall" and still.
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
The average height of males in the UK today is only 5'9". (And the average may have been shorter when the Professor was writing.) So we get an idea of just how large he envisaged the Numenoreans to be and how the human race has declined over time.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Height means squat. Húrin was said to be shorter of stature than his kindred, yet he was the greatest warrior among Men. One of my favorite, most tear-inducing lines in all of Tolkien:
quote:Last of all Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Hurin cried 'Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive..
What we know: By the third age both Elves and Men have diminished.
What we don't know: Just how much did Elves and Men diminish by the third age and what their respective physical relationships were at that time.
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
It's possible that Men increased toward the time of Númenór, and diminished afterward.
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
That bit in Unfinished Tales is not the only reference from JRRT. In RC Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull refer to a note dated 1969 where Tolkien refers to Elendil and Isildur 'both of whom had been seven feet tall' while Aragorn was 'probably at least 6 ft. 6' and Boromir 'not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4)'. Though according to Of Dwarves And Men anyway, 'Halfling' referred to: 'the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent) which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'
Jumping back to UT: [Halfling] 'It evidently referred to their height in comparison with Númenórean men, and was approximately accurate when given.' Unfinished Tales
Some Elves: Tolkien did once write that Turgon was the tallest of the Children of God save Thingol (revised Fall of Gondolin, UT), but in a later text (Shibboleth of Feanor) he made Argon the tallest of the brothers.
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posted
Aragorn is capable of hiding his height, however; when he pins the Elessar on himself, for example:
quote: Then Aragorn took the stone and pinned the brooch upon his breast, and those who saw him wondered; for they had not marked before how tall and kingly he stood, and it seemed to them that many years of toil had fallen from his shoulders.
And:
quote: But when Aragorn arose all that beheld him gazed in silence, for it seemed to them that he was revealed to them now for the first time. Tall as the sea-kings of old, he stood above all that were near; ancient of days he seemed and yet in the flower of manhood; and wisdom sat upon his brow, and strength and healing were in his hands, and a light was about him.
"The sea-kings of Old" were Isildur, Anarion and Elendil, so Aragorn had to be AT LEAST as tall as the shortest of them.
Therefore he could have been anywhere between 7' and 7'10" tall. Likewise, Boromir was slightly shorter, and broader and heavier-- so big that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli together could barely carry him. Gimli could carry twice his weight without trouble, while Legolas was said by Tolkien to be "immensely strong," and Aragorn was "the hardiest man in Middle-Earth;" so Boromir must have been a good deal more than 6'4".
Boromir was also stated to be "nearly twice" Frodo's height, while Frodo was said to be "taller than some" hobbits. So if the average hobbit was 3'2", and Frodo was 3'6", then Boromir could have been 6'10" or so.
[ 04-10-2008, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: "The sea-kings of Old" were Isildur, Anarion and Elendil, so Aragorn had to be AT LEAST as tall as the shortest of them.
Not necessarilly. During the Second Age the Númenorians started to return to Middle-earth during the reign of Tar-Elendil (somewhere between SA 590 - 740), and at least one king, Aldarion, was a noted mariner (admittedly he wasn't king at the time). I'm sure these strange, tall, lords of men would have appeared as kingly to the natives when they were first encountered and memory of these tall sea lords would have been handed down in legend.
From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
The phrase 'Tall as the sea-kings of old, he stood above all that were near' from the quote you cited could be open to interpretation. You may be correct and it does in fact refer to Elendil, Isuldur and Anarion only; however, the quote doesn't distinctly suggest this.
From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I would think that Tar-Ciryatan (the 12th Numenorean king) could be considered one of the sea-kings, so perhaps the term refers to the Numenoreans kings at large, or at least the middle/later ones that sailed to/from Middle-Earth.
Edited for clarification.
[ 04-11-2008, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: Prince Imrahil ]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.
-Minas Tirith
From: Dor-En-Ernil, Belfalas (by way of VA) | Registered: May 2006
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posted
I would think, that the term refers to the rhyme:
"Tall ships and tall kings, Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea?"
Also it's used in the Song of Muster of Rohan:
quote: Forth rode Théoden. Five nights and days east and onward rode the Eorlingas through Folde and Fenmarch and the Firienwood, six thousand spears to Sunlending, Mundburg the mighty under Mindolluin, Sea-kings’ city in the South-kingdom foe-beleaguered, fire-encircled.
This "Sea-kings' city" was Minas Tirith, so it would be in reference to Isildur and Anárion.
At Helm's Deep:
quote: At Helm's Gate, before the mouth of the Deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone, and within them was a lofty tower. Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness with the hands of giants.
This was also built by Elendil and his sons.
However there is reference in The Silmarillion to "Sea-kings" other than Elendil and sons:
quote: And coming among them the Númenóreans taught them many things. Corn and wine they brought, and they instructed Men in the sowing of seed and the grinding of grain, in the hewing of wood and the shaping of stone, and in the ordering of their life, such as it might be in the lands of swift death and little bliss. Then the Men of Middle-earth were comforted, and here and there upon the western shores the houseless woods drew back, and Men shook off the yoke of the offspring of Morgoth, and unlearned their terror of the dark. And they revered the memory of the tall Sea-kings, and when they had departed they called them gods, hoping for their return; for at that time the Númenóreans dwelt never long in Middle-earth, nor made there as yet any habitation of their own. Eastward they must sail, but ever west their hearts returned.
...
The mightiest and proudest was Ar-Pharazôn the Golden of all those that had wielded the Sceptre of the Sea-Kings since the foundation of Númenor;..
So it could either refer to Elendil and sons, or to the Kings of Númenór in general. Since the phrase was used in LotR, however, it would probably refer to the former.
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I had always thought "sea-kings" just referred to all the nobility (or perhaps only the monarchies) of Numenor.
Note that the four great mariner kings of Anarion's line, Tarannon Falastur, Eärnil I, Ciryandil, Hyarmendacil I, were all termed "ship-kings." Why ship-kings? I always thought that the reason was because the whole line of Numenorean royalty were colloquially called sea-kings, but to distinguish these four because of their naval policies they were termed "ship-kings" as well.
Remember that not all Numenorean monarchs were fond of the sea. I think they were called sea-kings because of their location in the middle of (or later on the shores of) the sea, not because of their policies. Hence the "ship-kings" terminology for those four mentioned above.
There is precedence for other monarchs in the Legendarium to have colloquial titles based upon the location of their realm. Good examples would be the "King Under the Mountain" or the "woodland king."
Edit: Here is some more proof of what Tolkien thought of the term:
quote:In those days there arose and took the throne of the Sea-kings the great Tar-Calion, whom men called Ar-Pharazon the Golden.
The History of the Akallabeth, The Peoples of Middle-earth
So I think it refers to the Numenorean royalty as a whole.
[ 04-11-2008, 04:50 AM: Message edited by: Thorin ]
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Does anybody know, or can point to any information about the height of Turin? Or any of the Edain before Numenor?
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
All I know is that Turin is almost certainly taller than his dad, who was specifically mentioned as being relatively short among his kin.
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I remember reading somewhere that according to Gwindor, he was as tall as his forefather Galdor. How tall that is, I don't know.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.
-Minas Tirith
From: Dor-En-Ernil, Belfalas (by way of VA) | Registered: May 2006
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That's one of the main points of the Athrabeth, in relation with the Mannish belief.
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