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Minas Tirith Forums » History of Middle-earth » Celeborn and Galadriel... (Page 2)
Author Topic: Celeborn and Galadriel...
Thalion
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I think I shall jump in.

First make a nice list of those who could be wiser than Celeborn: Cirdan, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindal.

Cirdan: he has Foresight beyond all others of Middle Earth. Quite a useful chap in a council. This Foresight does not neccesarily mean he is wise, as even with this knowledge, he does not seem to be able to accomplish much, bar helping Earendil build his boat, which he was instructed to do.

Glorfindal: He was the head of his house, and an extremely powerful Elf. Although included among the wise, he is never said to be the wisest.

Galadriel: Yes she was wiser than Feanor, learned all there was from the Valar, and lived through all the ages, however Celeborn was married to her for a good long time, surely he could have learned all her lore, however is inherently wiser, and used her information to better uses, and without pride. And seeing as Galadriel said the statement, this is even more believable.

Elrond: Celeborn reminds me immensly of Elrond in this respect. Elrond is given this amazing description of "Wise as a wizard, strong as a warrior, noble as a lord, kind as Summer" and so on, and he says he is an important part of almost all adventures, yet what does he really do in LOTR. He shelters them, feeds them, evaluates the situation has a meeting to decide what is best(which wasn't even of his making it just all came together) and sends them on their way in the smartest manner he can devise. Same thing as Celeborn did, only to a larger scale.

So, I have no ploblem believing Galadriels statement. Celeborn seems just not to like all the attention.

[ 07-28-2004, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Thalion ]

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Galadhir
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quote:
Fëanor was wise... he just lacked any common sense. See the difference?
According to the definition of wisdom in my dictionary,

quote:
1. the quality of being wise 2. experience and knowledge, together with the power of applying them critically or practically. 3.Sagacity, prudence; common sense.
Celeborn had it and Feanor didn't. We are indeed disagreeing over the definition of what wisdom is. If the Oxford reference dictionary is to be believed then Celeborn is an elf who makes common sense, practical decisions based on a very long lifetime of experience and knowledge, and this seems to me to describe him perfectly. The boats being a good example of that.

Does Aragorn, in all his wondering what to do next, come up with the idea of going down the river - a good, commonsense, practical idea? No he doesn't. Does Galadriel think of it? No. It's obvious, but it's only obvious *after* Celeborn's thought of it. He thinks of it, and it's such a reasonable, *wise*, practical idea everyone goes 'oh, yes, of course! Why didn't we think of that?'

I think people are looking for the wrong things in him - they're looking for the kind of magic that Galadriel has. But he's not like that, he doesn't do magic mirrors and magic rings - he gets things done in the world by the obvious means, by making solid practical decisions.

People have mentioned the ropes, the cloaks, the brooches etc; these are not the 'gifts' - they're the 'provisioning' that I mentioned earlier, and they bear the signs of being assembled by someone who has a good commonsense attitude to wilderness travel. Elrond, for example, forgot to give the travellers rope, and they needed it in Moria. The gifts themselves are

quote:
'gifts which the Lord and Lady of the Galadhrim now offer you in memory of Lothlorien.'... 'Here is the gift of Celeborn and Galadriel to the leader of your Company,'
Sindecollo has mentioned Galadriel's vanity, and I find it amusing that whenever she starts by trying to share credit, or say something nice about him, she always ends up telling people how wonderful she is. That quote from her which starts 'for the Lord of Lorien is accounted wisest of elves of Middle-earth,' finishes 'and I have dwelt with him forever and fought more evil than you've had hot dinners, and I began the White Council and knew that Saruman was dodgy from the start, but did anyone listen to me...'

But maybe she defers to him because - though he is less powerful than she is - he is equally important. Maybe they're a partnership and she trusts him? Marriages are not based on power after all, and just as a wife expects her husband to listen to her, surely a husband has the same right? Maybe they actually respect each other, as two very different people with the same goals?

[ 08-08-2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Galadhir ]

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Snöwdog
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quote:
Maybe they actually respect each other, as two very different people with the same goals?
This would seem to be the case. They complimented each other and had feeling for each other even if they weren't obvious on the surface. We know for a fact hey did have sex at least once resulting in Celebrían.
quote:
Celeborn and Galadriel did not have to go through endless perils to marry each other, and it would be kind of silly to write a story about them where nothing happened aside from that they fell in love... There wouldn't be much of a story to tell.
Well, there could be a story in it all, but where does one man who authors the tale spend their time and energy writing? Other than this:
quote:
Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them.
He left the details for the fanfix.
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Galin
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quote:
Gandalf the White wrote: 'Celeborn and Galadriel did not have to go through endless perils to marry each other, and it would be kind of silly to write a story about them where nothing happened aside from that they fell in love... There wouldn't be much of a story to tell.'


Snowdog responded [the quote about Galadriel being also noted earlier by Halion]: 'Well, there could be a story in it all, but where does one man who authors the tale spend their time and energy writing? Other than this: 'Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. '

He left the details for the fanfix.

And Tolkien himself didn't even write that much, at least here. This was an edit by Christopher Tolkien for the constructed Silmarillion -- the love between 'them' was between Galadriel and Melian in the actual text written by JRRT.


While Tolkien took some time to incorporate Galadriel into the tales of the First Age, take out any editorial mentions in the 1977 Silmarillion and see 'how much Celeborn' is left!

I dare ya []

Although there is The Shibboleth of Feanor for example... but there Tel[e]porno, Galadriel's lover and who is said to have given her her name [other than Nerwende Artanis; that is, he gave her a name that ultimately in Sindarin became Galadriel], is a Telerin Elf from Aman. Thus here he gets a Telerin name.

To that idea [Celeborn the Teler of Aman] I say 'no'.

In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn [later 1950s?] it's said that 'for love of Celeborn' [although I think we have a paraphrase here from Christopher Tolkien, it's arguably accurate I would say] Galadriel would not depart West* at the downfall of Melkor [part of the reason anyway, if 'probably' also due to some pride of her own is considered]. Celeborn is here 'rightly' a Sindarin Elf, as published twice by Tolkien himself.

And in The Elessar Celebrimbor says to Galadriel: 'But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love...'

__________
*of course later Tolkien would certainly introduce Galadriel being banned from returning to the West in any case.

[ 08-21-2014, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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Snöwdog
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quote:
Tolkien himself didn't even write that much, at least here. This was an edit by Christopher Tolkien for the constructed Silmarillion -- the love between 'them' was between Galadriel and Melian in the actual text written by JRRT.
i Suppose that could be left for the slash fanfix eh?
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Hamfast Gamgee
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I'm guessing that Celeborn wore a nice dress anyway!
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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