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Author Topic: The trees in the Middle Earth
Gabil-burk
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Reading about the trees in the Middle Earth I do understand that they represent something like the mirror of all times of the world.

They have experienced all dominations and peoples.

In the Two Towers, the "Ent" says that Elves were the first people that really tooked with the trees.

What kind of magical or mystic meaning do they have?

I understand that Tolkien were a roman-catholic, but I frequently uses some kind of myths from the Cathars, or Templars, or mystical ocidental christian.

Note: sorry about the poor English


From: Lisbon | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gabil-burk
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You should read talked and not tooked.
The elves were the first people who talked with the trees.....

Note: My poor english will kill me same day!!!


From: Lisbon | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TM
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hail,

I am not so sure if the Ents have any significance in them. But I know this: Tolkien, in his early childhood, read a Shakespeare play, and there were trees in it. And Young Tolkien thought the play was boring, and he fancied that the trees should one day march to war...etc; that would be more fun, Young Tolkien thought.

Now, when he was writing LOTR, he had already long forgotten about the trees, of course. But they were still in his bones, waiting to be triggered to surface somehow. And surfaced did they, on their own. Therefore, Tolkien said that he did not really try to put the Ents in the story.


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TulKas
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How do you know this, if even Toklien didn't?
From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
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The Professor certainly had a very close relationship with nature, and especially trees. They play a central part to his entire mythology. I find this a fascinating part of the narrative, and it also comes across in Tolkien’s letters.

quote:
There are of course certain things and themes that move me specially. The inter-relations between the 'noble' and the 'simple' (or common, vulgar) for instance. The ennoblement of the ignoble I find specially moving. I am (obviously) much in love with plants and above all trees, and always have been; and I find human maltreatment of them as hard to bear as some find ill-treatment of animals.
Letter 165

quote:
I deeply regret this handling of the 'Treebeard' chapter, whether necessary or not. I have already suspected Z of not being interested in trees: unfortunate, since the story is so largely concerned with them.
Letter 210, regarding Zimmerman’s film script

quote:
With reference to the Daily Telegraph of June 29th, page 18,1 feel that it is unfair to use my name as an adjective qualifying 'gloom', especially in a context dealing with trees. In all my works I take the pan of trees as against all their enemies. Lothlórien is beautiful because there the trees were loved; elsewhere forests are represented as awakening to consciousness of themselves. The Old Forest was hostile to two legged creatures because of the memory of many injuries. Fangorn Forest was old and beautiful, but at the time of the story tense with hostility because it was threatened by a machine-loving enemy. Mirkwood had fallen under the domination of a Power that hated all living things but was restored to beauty and became Greenwood the Great before the end of the story.

It would be unfair to compare the Forestry Commission with Sauron because as you observe it is capable of repentance; but nothing it has done that is stupid compares with the destruction, torture and murder of trees perpetrated by private individuals and minor official bodies. The savage sound of the electric saw is never silent wherever trees are still found growing.

Letter 339
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Q
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If trees were intelligent they would not try to murder hobbits. For one thing, it's misguided rage. Men destroyed more trees than hobbits, yet Old Man willow almost made inverted gerkins out of Marry and Pippin!

Intelligence is ultimately good because it is moved by balance. If all that Old man willow does for others is violent, than he is not intelligent enough to understand when someone is choppin him down, let alone understand that he is being chopped down. So in his case it's okay to out stink the stinker and just use him for firewood.

[ 01-03-2006, 03:12 AM: Message edited by: MANDOS ]

From: LOS ANGELES, CA. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lassë
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So one can't be intelligent and at the same time do evil deeds?

offtopic:
MANDOS, this is a messageboard. We don't have access to eachothers gestures, facial expressions and bodylanguage. Therefore I suggest that you stop using the [] smiley for posts (unless you wanna come across as sceptical and disrespectful) and maybe even change your screenname so that it isn't written in ALLCAPS. You often come across as extremely rude.

From: Berlin | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Lurker
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MANDOS,
quote:
Intelligence is ultimately good because it is moved by balance.
Not necessarily,
quote:
For he [Sauron] is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. ~ The Council of Elrond


[ 01-03-2006, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: The Lurker ]

From: Closer than you think | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Q
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Hi Lurker,
I understand your point about Sauron and that's why I retracted it from my message, because it might create alot of controversy. But you did get one thing right, Sauron only used things and people to benefit himself, which is what I'm saying about Old Man willow. You don't meet alot of intelligent trees, especially by the third age. And if trees carry the memory of ancient things done in the way back when, than this one was just a dumbheap for some of the worst of it. There is an intelligence of WILL in Lotr that supercedes the intelligence necissary to puff oneself up (Sauron), or take pride in one's race or beauty (Feanor), or say impressive and sometimes persuasive things (Saruman). The WILL to do what is right even with personal loss (note that; loss, not gain) is why the Professor chose hobbits, and especially Sam Gamgee, to portray this. It was the dumb who sought power (dumb because they were destroyed in the end anyways), and the intelligent who gave up power, or rather knew how to spread it around, how to delegate responsibility. The only time when Old Man willow gave up his desire for power (if it was nothing more than the desire for power over a small life, which is no small statement) was under the provocation of Bombadil. Even then Tom only lulled him back to sleep, a time where he wasn't exercising malice. And that is where the connection lies. So I'm sorry, I haven't actually retracted anything.

Even if Old Man willow was just a senseless wrecking machine and had no intelligence, there would be no loss in cutting it down. It would be an "it" not a "he."

And I only brought up Old Man willow because the thought of innocent trees being cut down was the only thing being talked about. What if the tables were turned? Which in this case they were.

This next part isn't for you Lurker, so thanks (really thanks, no sarcasm) for the mental challenge you offered me with your comment.

As to the other comment from the other person...I guess I'll just find some way of living with all that. Thank you.

[ 01-03-2006, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: MANDOS ]

From: LOS ANGELES, CA. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lassë
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You're welcome
From: Berlin | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Snöwdog
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quote:
So one can't be intelligent and at the same time do evil deeds?
I always believed Sauron, and Saruman, were quite intelligent. In ways they were so much so they were blinded by it, and were allowed to fall due to the intelligence of folk who looked at things in a much simpler way. They didn't see it coming.
From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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