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Minas Tirith Forums » The Hobbit » No mention of the River Anduin by name? (Page 1)
Author Topic: No mention of the River Anduin by name?
Roll of Honor pi
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So is it my faulty brain, or is there no mention of the River Anduin by name in TH? It is certainly on the drawing, and is only mentioned as a river, then a stream, here:
quote:
After a good while the eagles must have seen the point they were making for, even from their great height, for they began to go down circling round in great spirals. They did this for a long while, and at last the hobbit opened his eyes again. The earth was much nearer, and below them were trees that looked like oaks and elms, and wide grass lands, and a river running through it all. But cropping out of the ground, right in the path of the stream which looped itself about it, was a great rock, almost a hill of stone, like a last outpost of the distant mountains, or a huge piece cast miles into the plain by some giant among giants.
quote:
There was a flat space on the top of the hill of stone and a well worn path with many steps leading down it to the river, across which a ford of huge flat stones led to the grass-land beyond the stream. There was a little cave (a wholesome one with a pebbly floor) at the foot of the steps and near the end of the stony ford.
This doesn't sound like the "Great River of Wilderland", yet I guess it is. Not sure why I though of it but, well, there you have it. Doesn't sound too great or mighty at that point when it is called a stream that they can cross on foot.
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[ 03-28-2009, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: pi ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Perhaps the weather in Wilderland was just a bit dry at the time of the Hobbit? But you're right in that Anduin is never mentioned as Anduin in the Hobbit. Just as in the same way that Sauron is never mentioned as Sauron just as the Necromancer and The Shire is never mentioned as the Shire!
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Roll of Honor pi
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The Shire, too? How bizarre.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Yes, I challenge anybody to find the word 'Shire,' in the Hobbit! I think it just says that Bilbo rode through lands were people were fairly civilizied! Seen as Thorin doesn't seem to be about much, I suppose I might become the Hobbit expert here, seen as I have read the book fairly recently!
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Roll of Honor pi
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Well, who am I to argue with a hobbit, especially from the exalted Gamgee family.
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Alatar the Wizard
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"The Hobbit" does include an occasional reference to places and such in the Silmarillion (e.g. Gondolin), but I've always thought of it as a different beast than either the Silmarillion or LOTR. It's a children's fairy tale for which Tolkien decided to write another children's fairy tale as a sequel, but that sequel ended up becoming the relatively adult LOTR instead.

[ 03-30-2009, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Alatar the Wizard ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Curously enough, however, there is nothing in the Hobbit which is directly contradicted in the later tales, though I would imagine that if Tolkien had another opportunity to write it, he might have written it a bit differently, and even that which is one could say that, well it was written about the world in the North which was little mentioned in Lotr and perhaps things where a bit different!
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Roll of Honor pi
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No? What about the characteristics of trolls?
And the tra-la-la happiness of the Elves? []

edit: and Gandalf falling from a fir tree would kill him in TH but a fall into the Khazad-dum abyss with a balrog...
Oops! thread spill over...

[ 03-30-2009, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: pi ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Well, as far as Trolls, like one says, they were Northern Misty Mountains Trolls and that's how they behavied! The singing of Elves, some where just like that in Rivendell. The Wargs killing Gandalf? All right, we'll leave that one for now!
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
And the tra-la-la happiness of the Elves? []
On a different board someone suggested that their musical style had perhaps been too much influenced by Tom Bombadil []
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Roll of Honor pi
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Also, no mention of Bree and only one of Hobbiton at the very end.
As I look at this quote and think of Hobbits' ways, I find it curious that there was a need for the legal profession.
quote:
If he was surprised, they were more surprised still. He had arrived back in the middle of an auction! There was a large notice in black and red hung on the gate, stating that on June the Twenty-second Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Bun-owes would sell by auction the effects of the late Bilbo Baggins Esquire, of Bag-End, Underhill, Hobbiton. Sale to commence at ten o'clock sharp. It was now nearly lunch-time, and most of the things had already been sold, for various prices from next to nothing to old songs (as is not unusual at auctions). Bilbo's cousins the Sackville-Bagginses were, in fact, busy measuring his rooms to see if their own furniture would fit. In short Bilbo was "Presumed Dead," and not everybody that said so was sorry to find the presumption wrong.

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Sarah the Good Witch
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From what I understood, there was no real legal profession, they simply followed the law as handed down from the high king at Fornost with various nobles (landlords) and officials.
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Madomir
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quote:
Curously enough, however, there is nothing in the Hobbit which is directly contradicted in the later tales, though I would imagine that if Tolkien had another opportunity to write it, he might have written it a bit differently,
quote:
Also, no mention of Bree and only one of Hobbiton at the very end.
I forget where I read it, perhaps in some volume of HoME, but Tolkien spent a great deal of time and effort trying to justify the journey from Bag End to Rivendell in The Hobbit with the same journey in LotR. Making the speed of travel, overall distance, daily travel distance, rivers and landmarks all sync up was not an easy task. This is prob'ly an area of the Hobbit he would have preferred to restructure.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Yes, which is why I think that if Tolkien could have written the tale again, or had the opportunity of editing, he would have done. But it was clever of him to make the story part of his main one and to make it believable!
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Roll of Honor pi
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Yes. Can you say "shoehorned into the greater legendarium?"
Hello, my friends. Happy weekend!

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Or one could say that the greater Legendurium was shoehorned into the Hobbit!
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Snöwdog
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Being the Silmarillion got its start in 1916 and from that, Tolkien came up with The Hobbit where names of places and the distances were vague at best. It suited the story though and with the later development of the 'sequel' of the Lord of the Rings trilogy he put more effort into these things.
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Gollum Gollum
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quote:
"And it came to pass after many years of journeying in this manner that the Eldar took their course through a forest, and they came to a great river, wider than any they had yet seen; and beyond it were mountains whose sharp horns seemed to pierce the realm of the stars."
- Quenta Silmarillion

Anduin is often called the 'Great River'. However, it actually means 'long river' (and=long, duin=river) in Sindarin...

There's a lot of geography in The Hobbit, Snöwdog. Of course not as much as in LotR, but still... We have Bag End, Hobbiton, Rivendell, Misty Mountains, Carrock, Mirkwood, Esgaroth, Erebor, Dale, the Long Lake, the Long Marshes, the Iron Hills, (leaving out things like Great River of Wilderland or River Running, which have their non-English names, but Tolkien doesn't use them in TH) probably also two or three things I forgot about. TH is not a long book, so I'd say that's a lot.

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Snöwdog
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Yes Gollum², I agree. The places that was relevant to the tale were mentioned.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Yes, in the Hobbit there were skeleton details, more fleshed out in the later works.
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The Flammifer
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There is no "Gandalf the Grey" in The Hobbit either . .

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"Faithless Is He Who Says Farewell When The Road Darkens"
It's much more difficult to sneak off in daylight!

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Gollum Gollum
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Really? [] Maybe when writing TH Tolkien didn't yet have the idea of the Five Istari. If Gandalf was the only one, "the Grey" wasn't necessary...
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The Flammifer
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Good point GG. Yes, I have searched all my reference books (incl. TH of course) and he is called "An Old Man with a staff", "the Wandering Wizard", "Gandalf the Wizard", and mostly just "Gandalf", but NEVER "Gandalf the Grey".
I just thought it an interesting piece of trivia.

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"Faithless Is He Who Says Farewell When The Road Darkens"
It's much more difficult to sneak off in daylight!

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Galin
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Yes I think in terms of The Hobbit Gandalf was a wizard and not the angelic Istar he would come to be. Radagast was his cousin in The Hobbit, if I recall correctly.

Note Gandalf cannot read the difficult runes on Glamdring and Orcrist, and we must await Elrond. When Tolkien wrote the 1960 Hobbit Gandalf the Istar couldn't read the runes due to dried blood on the swords [a 'fix' never incorporated into the third edition however]...

... as the 'new' Gandalf should arguably be able to read the swords other-wize.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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In the Hobbit of course, Gandalf was not the only Wizard. What about Radagast?
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