As for Orkish visual art, we have at least one example :
quote:The brief glow fell upon a huge sitting figure, still and solemn as the great stone kings of Argonath. The years had gnawed it, and violent hands had maimed it. Its head was gone, and in its place was set in mockery a round rough-hewn stone, rudely painted by savage hands in the likeness of a grinning face with one large red eye in the midst of its forehead. Upon its knees and mighty chair, and all about the pedestal, were idle scrawls mixed with the foul symbols that the maggot-folk of Mordor used.
LotR.
[ 03-04-2008, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Eluchil ]
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006
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Yes, debased mockery seems to have been the Orc style. I could well imagine that depicting the swords of Gondolin in some format would be something they would find amusement with.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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Actually one thing I just thought was that if the Great Goblin recognized Thorin, that was more observant of him that the Elven-king in Mirkwood, who didn't!
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006
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I always assumed the golbins instantly recognised the blades because they would have been glowing - probably glowing like mad in the middle of all those goblins.
Perhaps just the rumour or tale of glowing swords was enough to carry through either generations of goblins or in the memory of immortal golbins (if they were actually immortal).
From: Berkshire | Registered: Jan 2003
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But they could tell one sword from the other, and we have no record of them glowing differently. So it couldn't just be the glow - there had to be something else they recognised.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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Maybe they knew them at first hand because the Gondolin swords had remained in the hands of the orcs for most of the time since the fall of Beleriand, as war-trophies, and they had only recently been stolen by the trolls.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered.
From: Perth, Scotland | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Absurdly simple, like most riddles when you see the answer.
That makes perfect sense. I wonder why no one (that I can remember, at least) has mentioned this possibility before.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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Still, they might have recognized the swords, but this didn't mean the Goblins would necessarily recognize those that wielded the swords! It might have been anybody that had taken the swords from the trolls as far as the Goblins knew. But at least the Goblins did recognize Thorin as an enemy. The Elves of Mirkwood didn't recognize a major leader of the Dwarves!
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Still, they might have recognized the swords, but this didn't mean the Goblins would necessarily recognize those that wielded the swords!
The Great Goblin did recognise Thorin.
quote:It might have been anybody that had taken the swords from the trolls as far as the Goblins knew.
I don't see what that has to do with anything. The goblins recognised the sword as Orcrist, and they recognised that the person carrying the sword was Thorin Oakenshield.
quote:But at least the Goblins did recognize Thorin as an enemy. The Elves of Mirkwood didn't recognize a major leader of the Dwarves!
Actually, we don't know that. The text doesn't say whether Thorin was recognised or not.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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It may not be stated outright but it is implied that the Elvenking didn't know who he had captured, other than that they were dwarves. Hamfast stated in an earlier post that it seems interesting that the Great Goblin knew Thorin but the Elvenking seemed not to.
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Actually, if the text implies anything I would guess that it implies that the Elvenking did know who he had captured.
quote: All this was well known to every dwarf, though Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel I have spoken of. Consequently Thorin was angry at their treatment of him...
If the Elves had no idea who they captured, why would Thorin be angry at his treatment? I take this to mean that the Elves knew who they captured but still treated Thorin (to his mind) poorly for no good reason. Thorin was thinking that Durin’s Folk didn’t have anything to do with the old quarrel with Thingol, so why was he being treated so poorly?
quote:”Why did you and your folk three times try to attack my people at their merrymaking?” asked the king.
Why did the Elvenking use the possessive “your folk” if he did not know that Thorin was their leader?
However, this is not clear. My point is that there is no proof that the Elvenking did or did not know who Thorin was. If anything, one can argue that the evidence points to Thranduil knowing Thorin.
As for the Great Goblin knowing Thorin, I assume this dates back to the Dwarf and Goblin War. The Great Goblin may have seen Thorin personally in battle at some point or another.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: Why did the Elvenking use the possessive “your folk” if he did not know that Thorin was their leader?
In Dutch law, if for instance you want a court order to evict squatters, you sue one of them whose name (or even whose picture) you've got "to leave with all that is his and all those who are his", i.e. with all his stuff and all his folk. No implication that he is the leader of the squat. So, there is no necessary implication that Thranduil knew that Thorin was the lead Dwarf.
quote:All this was well known to every dwarf, though Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel I have spoken of. Consequently Thorin was angry at their treatment of him...
The use of the word "consequently" of necessity ties these two thoughts together: 1) Thorin's family had nothing to do with the old quarrel, and 2) Because of this Thorin was angry at his treatment.
However, this doesn't mean that Thranduil knew who Thorin was or Thorin volunteered this information.
I'm not actually trying to argue that the Elvenking knew who Thorin was. I'm just giving an example on how it could be argued, basically to refute the idea that Thranduil was clueless on whom he had captured.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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Well, I've had another little look at the relevant text and it doesn't make it completely clear if the Elvenking knew Thorin or didn't! I guess that explains my confusion! One thing though, later one there is a phrase that shows the Elvenking's understand of Dwarves, when he found out about them escaping to Lake-town is
quote:'Very well! We'll see! No treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter. But I expect they will all come to a bad end, and serve them right!' He at any rate did not believe in dwarves fighting and killing dragons like Smaug, and he strongly suspected attempted burglary or something like it-which shows he was a wise elf and wiser than the men of the town, though not quite right, as we shall se in the end.
posted
The Orks would have a reason to recognize Thorin, he had fought in the Dwarf-Ork Wars where he won the name Oaken Shield. When would the Elves of the Mirkwood come in contact with Thorin? It would have been very long ago when Thorin was very young. Although the Elves may have traded with the Dwarves, I highly doubt they would have had great relations. The Elves of the Mirkwood were not Noldor, the hatred and mistrust between the two kinds would have been very strong.
From: Oklahoma | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yes, I would assume that if Thranduil and Thorin had met it would have been prior to the fall of Erebor. Thorin didn't seem to have been in the area much (or at all) since then.
Although the dwarves and elves probably viewed each other with suspicion, it seems they did get along. Roac says this to Thorin:
quote:We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation...
It would surprise me if the noble houses of Men, Dwarves and Elves didn't know their neighbouring aristocratic families. There seemed to have been a fair amount of horizontal social mobility in Middle-earth: the dwarves took in apprentices, Elrond fostered the Heirs of Isildur, and even the House of Eorl sent at least one son to Minas Tirith.
This reminds me of the horizontal social mobility and guest-friendship that prevailed in the archaic Mediterranean, like in Central Italy and Greater Greece. This guest-friendship was strengthened by ritualised gift-giving. We see ghosts of this with Dain giving gifts after the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo giving the necklace to Thranduil, Eomer's gifts to Merry, and even Celeborn & Galadriel's gifts to the Fellowship.
There are many more examples, but I think this points to a degree of interaction between the aristocratic houses that would make it plausible that Thranduil would have known Thorin.
No proof, though. I'm just speculatin' with circumstantial evidence.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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Is there no textual evidence that the Elven-lord recognized Thorin as a powerful Dwarf when he saw Thorin?
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006
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