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Author Topic: Dale's Languages
Roll of Honor -Laurelin-
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*I will be back later to clarify and add some*

What languages did the Men of Dale spoke? We know from The Hobbit that the Lake-Men (and the remnants of Dale) spoke the Common Speech. Yet, these are Northmen which orginate of a same root as the Rohirrim. As I just noticed from a quote in the Password Thread, Men of Dale used a cirth which was similar to the Rohirric one.

Madam Fonnstad in her 'language' tree depicts Men of Dale & Rohirrim as from the same branch. And it is reasonable to suppose that these two clans came from the same seeds.

Did the Men of Dale spoke a Mannish Tongue, like the Northern one spoken by the Rohirrim (Rohirric)?

[ 06-10-2004, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: -Laurelin- ]

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Based on the names given to their kings (notably Bard and Brand), I would say that the Dalemen spoke a language that had a common ancestor with Rohirric, but developed differently due to the two groups being separated. Bard and Brand are both, I believe, derived from Old Norse, which is distantly related to Old English (used to represent Rohirric) through ancient Germanic languages (I believe).

So whatever real language the Men of Dale spoke, it was probably similar to Rohirric in some ways but still clearly a different language of its own.

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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I apologize for the double post (and I'll delete this one later), but wouldn't this thread be more suited in the Languages forum? I know the Men of Laketown/Dale were introduced in The Hobbit, but the topic at hand is their language, after all...
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Roll of Honor -Laurelin-
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I was flummoxed as to where to post it.

LOTR also gave my basic informations about the thread. It seems like it could have been a bit everywhere.

Whatsoever, I didn't expect much growth from this thread.

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Ah! This is a great question, for a multitude of reasons. [] I've wanted to start a thread about this for a long time, but I haven't gotten my thoughts together regarding it yet.

First, Bilbo spoke Common to the Men of Long Lake in the Hobbit.
Second, we know from the Appendixes and HoME that the language of Dale was not Common.
Third, we know that ancient hobbit-words were related to the language of the Rohirrim, which was itself related to the language of Dale.

So the question of the language of Dale may be bound up with the great migrations of Men as well as the origins of hobbits. I briefly discussed some of this with Maerbenn and a little less with Herendil. Evidently the mighty Nimruzir has also done some research on this as well as the Pukel-men.

I really apologize for doing this, but I simply don't have time to post all of my thoughts regarding this at the moment, and it may be awhile before I do. They are rather complicated and need quite a bit of researching and editing before they would be legible.

For those of you with HoME, do some searching. In Peoples (I think) there are some great quotes regarding this. Maybe someone can post them.

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Roll of Honor -Laurelin-
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Men of Dale
quote:
East of the Misty Mountains, even far to the north, the Common Speech was known; though there, as in Esgaroth [>as beside the Long Lake] or in Dale, or among the Beornings and the Woodmen of the west-eaves of Mirkwood, Men also retained their own tongues in daily use.
quote:
But in the north old forms survived. The speech of the Men of Dale, therefore, to shows its relationship has been cast in a Northern form related distantly to the English which has been taken to represent the Common Speech.
I was also intrigued to know when was Dale built
quote:
But the East Gates which perished in the war against the Orks, had opened upon the wide world, and were less friendly. They had bourne Runic inscriptions in several tongues: spells of prohibition and exclusion in Khuzdul, and commands that all should depart who had not the leave of the Lord of Moria written in Quenya, Sindarin, the Common Speech, the languages of Rohan and of Dale and Dunland.
This quote seems to imply that these inscriptions were wrought when Dwarves were inhabiting Khazad-dum and prospering. Yet,
Dwarves fled from Moria's Balrog in III 1981
So the written inscriptions in the Language of Dale had been wrought before this date, which also acknowledges that Dale (the city) was built and established since a long time.

But it also refers to 'Language of Rohan' which was inexistant(Rohan) until III 2510. []

The next clue we have about Dale:
"III 2590 Thrór the Dwarf (of Dúrin's race) founds the realm of Erebor (the Lonely Mountain), and becomes 'king under the Mountain'. He lives in friendship with the Men of Dale, who are nearly akin to the Rohirrim."

Though the part about Thrór & Erebor is changed, the existance of Dale is still plausible at this time. Nearly two hundred years later, Smaug descend on Erebor, sacks Dale and slay Girion.

I found something about the Hobbits - for Thorin.
quote:
All such enquiries show that before their crossing of the Mountains the Hobbits spoke the same language as Men in the higher vales of the Anduin, roughly between the Carrock and Gladden Fields. 23 Now that language was nearly the same as the language of the ancestors of the Rohirrim; and it was also allied, as has been said above, both to the languages of Men further north and east (as in Dale and Esgaroth), and to those further south from which the Westron itself was derived. It is this possible to understand the rapidity with which evidently the Hobbits adopted the Common Speech as soon as they crossed into Eriador, where it had long been current.


[ 06-11-2004, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: -Laurelin- ]

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Snöwdog
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Being that the Rohirrim came from Rhovanion as did the men of Dale, their languages would definitely be similar.
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