Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2 
Minas Tirith Forums » The Hobbit » More information on Stone Giants? (Page 1)
Author Topic: More information on Stone Giants?
Maglor
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 498

posted      Profile for Maglor   Email Maglor   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I've just been rereading the Hobbit and haven't noticed there in any of the other Tolkien books i've read. Does Tolkien have a letter on them or something?
From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ereinion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 757
posted      Profile for Ereinion   Email Ereinion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I always thought them to be some kind of mountain trolls, but I haven't read letters so i don't really know
From: Slovenia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

posted      Profile for Mandin   Author's Homepage   Email Mandin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
If I had to guess, I would guess that, like Shelob, they had no masters, but unlike her where not terribly evil. I am guessing that they were like rocks as ents were like trees. If orcs went around shopping down mountains then maybe the giants would get mad and actually do something, but as that never happened, I'm guessing they just minded their own business through all eternity. Have I guessed enough?
From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Cernunnos
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 652

posted      Profile for Cernunnos   Email Cernunnos   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I think JRRT may originally have intended to explain giants a bit more. You know the character of Treebeard was originally going to be an evil giant?

------------------
Whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered.


From: Perth, Scotland | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuor
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 374

posted      Profile for Tuor   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I didn't know that. These stone Giants were meant to be ents then?
From: Oklahoma | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

posted      Profile for Mandin   Author's Homepage   Email Mandin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Writers do all sorts of funny things like thinking about maybe having an evil giant and then turning it into such a jolly creature as an Ent.
If, however, Treebeard was too be evil, then maybe he would have been a mountain giant. AS it is - Treebeard being a good ent and all that - I think Tolkien just kinda left the poor Mountain Giants out.

I don't know if I'm making sense.


From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Maglor
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 498

posted      Profile for Maglor   Email Maglor   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I'd have to go with Erienion, maybe they were an early form of the undevolped Mountain Trolls. For anyone who's read the letters is their something on them.

From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Cernunnos
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 652

posted      Profile for Cernunnos   Email Cernunnos   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
The stone giants weren't meant to be ents. JRRT's conception of who 'Treebeard' was going to be changed during the course of the composition. I kind of think he was almost as surprised at who and what the Ents were as Pippin and Merry!

------------------
Whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered.


From: Perth, Scotland | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Círdan
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 812
posted      Profile for Círdan   Author's Homepage   Email Círdan   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I always thought that the giants were planted there by Sauron to make mischief. At the end of The Hobbit it says that going home was an easy business-all obstacles were gone. And in Unfinished Tales, the obliteration of all fell creatures in the Misty Mountains after the Battle of Five Armies is discussed in detail (meaning that they were full of Sauron's nasties before). I'm not sure though.

------------------
In Autumn most of all do they come out, for Autumn is their season, fallen as they are upon the Autumn of their days. What shall the dreamers of the earth be like when their winter comes?


From: Atlanta | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecthelion of the Fountain
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 809
posted      Profile for Ecthelion of the Fountain   Email Ecthelion of the Fountain   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Remember, The Hobbit was originally intended to be a children's story, so maybe the giants were just thrown in to make it more like a traditional children's story. Tolkien changed a lot between The Hobbit and LotR. Maybe as he intended LotR to be taken more seriously than the Hobbit, he just threw them out.
Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 371
posted      Profile for cian   Edit/Delete Post 
Of interest (maybe), in the Drafts of LotR we find:

"Trolls of a new and most malevolent kind were abroad; giants were spoken of, a Big Folk only far bigger and stronger than Men the [?ordinary] Big Folk, and no stupider, indeed often full of cunning and wizardry."

Revised to:

"Trolls and giants were abroad, of a new and more malevolent kind, no longer dull-witted but full of cunning and wizardry."

And ultimately in FotR:

"Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."


Sams early (draft) statement:

"But what about these what do you call 'em -- giants? They do say one nigh as big as a tower or leastaways a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors ..."

Changed (at the time of writing ~ CT) to:

"But what about these Tree-Men, these here -- giants?"

(aside: there are some kind of "Tree-men" mentioned in the early Mythology, The Book of Lost Tales, see The Tale of Eärendel)

Also of note may be that the names Entish Lands, Entish Dales (Old English ent 'giant') referred to the "Troll-country" north of Rivendell ... and the eventual Ettenmoors, Ettendales are also related to another old 'giant' word, eoten.

That said, of course we meet trolls and giants in The Hobbit, and Gandalf says that he must see if he can't find "a more or less decent giant" for a task ... hmmm

Ah well, some giant refs. in any event. Cheers~


Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mellon
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 402
posted      Profile for Mellon   Email Mellon   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
When reading The Hobbit, I allowed JRR some fairy tale license. As a child, we referred to thunder and lightning as giants rolling boulders in the heavens or playing bowling in the heavens type thing. I always thought of the Stone Giants as a metaphorical explanation rather than as real living giants. More of a kids explanation to a potentially scary phenomena. I am sure if the real things existed, Jrr would have let Sauron march them out and use them against his foes.

------------------
the takers get the honey
givers sing the blues


From: houston, tx usa | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eorl the Young
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 843
posted      Profile for Eorl the Young   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Mellon. I never really thought of them being real giants. I guess I couldn't decide whether they were giants or metaphores.
From: Denmark, home of the highest mountains in Europe | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Balin Lord of Moria
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 332
posted      Profile for Balin Lord of Moria   Author's Homepage   Email Balin Lord of Moria   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Doesnt Gandalf say he will get a friendly giant to plug up the hole to the Goblin lair? If so then they have to be at least neutral creatures, perhaps like dragons former troops of the Darkness that struck out on their own.

[ 04-19-2006, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Balin Lord of Moria ]

From: Shirley,NY,USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Monkybone
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5179
posted      Profile for Monkybone   Email Monkybone   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
those trolls and giants you talk about cian, those quotes is about the new bred from sauron the olog-hai, that is smarter that regular trolls. And the giants sam talks about is probably just ents that hobbits have observed.

I also agree with mellon that the giants are not real giants, but a methaphor of thunder and lightning, or maybe something more. Rmember Caradhras? They said that the mountain wanted them down, ansent down rocks, and snow at them. When they was away from the hill, the storm stopped. Anyway, it is much better described in Fotr. I believe that these stone/mountain giants, may be the will or sould of the mountain, as they believed. Caradhras had a "will" it wanted the fellowship away, and wouldn't let them pass. And the misty mountains also sent storm and boulders at the dwarves. The mountain, as well as the trees and every thing in middle-earth, has soul and will. That is anyway what i have the impression of.
Just telling you what i believe...

Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Balin Lord of Moria
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 332
posted      Profile for Balin Lord of Moria   Author's Homepage   Email Balin Lord of Moria   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I admit with the moutain that definetly might be the case. But in the Hobbit in "out of the frying-pan into the fire" pg. 95 in my book Gandalf says
quote:
I must see if i cant find a more or less decent giant to block it up again" said Gandalf," or soon there will be no gettin over the mountaints at all"
As i doubt Gandalf could find a "decent" troll or any other servant of the enemy,nor can it just be a litarery device to portray the thunder etc. they have to be a neutral race that lives in self imposed isolation. Thats my theory anyway.

[ 04-19-2006, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Balin Lord of Moria ]

From: Shirley,NY,USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Monkybone
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5179
posted      Profile for Monkybone   Email Monkybone   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
It might be just a joke... Or maybe he meant Ent.
Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Balin Lord of Moria
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 332
posted      Profile for Balin Lord of Moria   Author's Homepage   Email Balin Lord of Moria   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well Thorin also mentioned not wanting to become a foot ball for the Giants or something along those lines. ( dont have my book right now to give quote) Either way an ent is out of the question. No ent would leave the forest except for a great need and then probably not into the high moutains. If he meant ent he would have said it.
From: Shirley,NY,USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Snowman of Forochel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2150

posted      Profile for Snowman of Forochel   Author's Homepage   Email Snowman of Forochel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I agree. Definitely not an Ent.

The Giants do exist, or they would not have been mentioned. If there are Trolls, Goblins, Dwarves, and Ents, then there is no reason for there not to be Giants as well.

The Giants are just having some fun throwing around boulders, the way we play ball I guess. []

From: New Orleans | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Monkybone
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5179
posted      Profile for Monkybone   Email Monkybone   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
find a more or less decent Giant.... As i said before the giant might just the "soul" of the mountain. And maybe by a deecent giant he meant to manipulate the mountain to roll boulders on something or anything...
Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Balin Lord of Moria
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 332
posted      Profile for Balin Lord of Moria   Author's Homepage   Email Balin Lord of Moria   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
i dont think the moutain would roll stones in a hollow for anyones benefit. Besides Thorin states that the giants will use them for foot balls. Definetly not a moutain thiing to do. And if he was refering to a "soul" of the moutain? then why would he have to go find one? the moutain that the hole was in would either be good or bad ( if there at all) thats it. no searching required. ...if the moutains are suddenly alive that is.
From: Shirley,NY,USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Q
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5312
posted      Profile for Q   Email Q   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
"Finding" a stone giant wouldn't be as difficult as making him listen to you. When was the only time that they were mentioned as being out, and what did they spend it in? If he wanted to find a giant as quickly as possible, it would be at this time, when a storm was going on and they were hurling boulders.

This does get me thinking though...
Why would a stone giant single out something as small as a dwarf to be kicked "sky high as a football" if what he normally tossed were boulders fifty to one hundred times their size? They wouldn't be the size of a football...more like a grape. The giants were conceivably this large since their silloettes were seen accross the valley when the lightning struck. A giant of this size and strength would have had to carefully pick him up by the clothes (probably his cape if he wants to keep the whole dwarf intact), since grabbing any part of his body would mean grabbing his upper torso, thus squishing his head. He would then have to toss him in the air or drop him down to his foot in order to kick him, and with the visibility of the rain it would be very hard to aim at and hit a speck. If he let go of a dwarf in any way so as to kick it, the dwarf would just fall alive down into the ravine.
I think that Gandalf was taking some creative license here to scare the dwarves off of their ledge and into finding a suitable place to camp (not "off of their ledge and into the ravine", as my last sentence could indicate...as it's very challenging to set up camp on the bottom of a ravine after your companions are dead and scattered about you in 14 different places). []

[ 04-20-2006, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: MANDOS ]

From: LOS ANGELES, CA. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
posted      Profile for Thorin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Giants are no metaphor. Bilbo saw and described them:

quote:
When he peeped out in the lightning-flashes, he saw that across the valley the stone-giants were out and were hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them down into the darkness where they smashed among the trees far below, or splintered into little bits with a bang
But evil often turns into itself. I can easily imagine Gandalf convincing a giant that if it blocked up the tunnel entrance then it would have less competition with goblins in attacking travellers and gaining booty for itself. Very similar to what Gandalf did to trick the trolls.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Q
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5312
posted      Profile for Q   Email Q   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
You mean the kind of agreement Gollum made with Shelob? But of course Gandalf's agreement would mean blocking up a cave instead of sending heavier amounts of traffic through one (I bet he would have sent all of Faramir's troops on this detour if he had Gandalf's reasoning ability), and disabling the giant's hopes of marauding by causing a fight among them.

Perhaps since they were only out at night, it would mean that he had to keep them busy blocking up the caves until day-break?

He could even cause more trouble by tempting both the stone giants and the goblins to elliminate the other in an attempt to make sure that ALL unattentive travellers would be theirs for the taking. The mountains would be cleansed by them destroying one another better than any army of elves could. Gandalf might have gone this far, and killed two birds with one stone. []

[ 04-21-2006, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: MANDOS ]

From: LOS ANGELES, CA. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Balin Lord of Moria
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 332
posted      Profile for Balin Lord of Moria   Author's Homepage   Email Balin Lord of Moria   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
If that was possible im sure Gandalf would have done it in the past. The Goblins and Giants have been in those moutains for generations. On a diffrent note i dont get the impression that the Giants were nessasarily Evil. Just like Old man willow and even the ents they seem to be outside the normal West Vs East racial break down. I doubt they would care about anything but food and a bit of fun with a boulder . If Gandalf had to trick them to block up the passage then there would be no need to find a "decent" giant. Actualy quite the opposite the most malicious and aggressive one would probably be most apt to hinder the goblins if this was the case. From the few bits we get about the giants i belive like ents and other strange creatures of ME they just exist and care little about the doings of other races.
From: Shirley,NY,USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » The Hobbit » More information on Stone Giants? (Page 1)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1