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Minas Tirith Forums » Silmarillion » Sil read-alongs of Yore and Fore (Page 4)
Author Topic: Sil read-alongs of Yore and Fore
Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Does it say that the stars are in the void?

I've heard people say that Arda is more than just the planet, it includes the universe (or parts of it) as well.

Which should indicate that the Void would be outside of wherever the stars are.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Don't worry too much about the technical details of the first few chapters is my advice. [] It is pure mythos as someone once said to me. I don't think it is all to be taking literally as written. I would say read through it with a pinch of salt if necessary! The good stuff comes a bit later.

[ 07-23-2011, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Hamfast Gamgee ]

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Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
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In haste, because today is evaporating into an interesting blue haze...

Of course we must look at details, Hamfast; that's a large part of why we are here. I think.

I'm mostly carping (there's a surprise [] ). It's so derivative - a melange of Paradise Lost (Go Milton!) and early church angelology.

And I know Tolkien's avowed aim was to write a mythology for England (like we don't have several), but I really don't think you should sacrifice clarity of expression to your desire to sound "mythic". Some of his sentences are so convoluted that they make no sense at all without digging for several minutes; and I still can't get my head round the multiple names everyone/thing has.

Great posts, Athene and DQ - I shall look back at this section in the book in the light of what you say.

Onwards and upwards, in the immortal words of GQT!

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Roll of Honor Athene
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DQ, what I meant about Melkor seeming more human was not that the Valar did or should have human characteristics, just that from the point of view of the story, it makes him a more relatable antagonist if he does stuff that humans do, like telling himself he's a good guy while actually acting like a complete d***. []

I wanted to put paragraph references in my comments so that people could find them but the paragraphs aren't numbered in my edition. Maybe I'll try to go back to it so you can see where the quotes about stars and so on come from. []

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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[] I know what you mean about trying to be mythic SSA - very annoying.

Paragraphs aren't numbered in mine either, don't worry about it Athene. []

If everyone's on course, this week should be the Valaquenta. I may not be around much next week but I'll do my best to keep things moving.

Also, the first post has been updated.

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Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
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I checked back about the stars, in the non-void. As I read it, the music spilled out into the Void, at which point it was no longer a void. Quite why it then acquired stars rather than teddy bears or jars of marmite is a mystery to me.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Eru likes stars!
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Roll of Honor Athene
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"the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void."

I see. [] The quote that puzzled me was:

"chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars"

I couldn't work out why the void would have either time or stars in it. []

E: OK, I'm reading the Valaquenta now and remembering the names and powers and relationships is very much like collecting Pokémon. [] I am ashamed/proud to admit that I have started making Powerpoint presentations to keep track of it all. Will post these at some point no doubt, as I have no self-respect. [] []

[ 07-26-2011, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Athene ]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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[] Obviously Eru hates Marmite.

I wasn't too sure about the music spilling out into the Void thing because most of what 'spilled out' appeared to vanish when Eru started doing YMCA.

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Roll of Honor Athene
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*Ahem*
Organisational Chart for the Valar
Table of Characteristics

[] It looks sufficiently like work for me to be able to get away with it.
[]

E: If you can't see it properly or want to suggest corrections, just let me know. And Thingy, please don't say "umlauts" because I KNOW, ALRIGHT???/// [] []

[ 07-26-2011, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Athene ]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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Daddy likes umlauts? []

Anyway, it's good to see you're doing something productive, Athene, I too should be working really but... [] Nice charts! The text's a bit squinty on the second one however. []

[ 07-27-2011, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: The DarkQueen Iauraearien ]

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Roll of Honor Athene
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I agree, very squinty. I've emailed it to you in Powerpoint form... hope that's not too creepy! []

I had LOLs making it, hope you have LOLs reading it. []

I like the references to Gandalf in Valaquenta. It tells us a little more about his background. []

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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I like your charts, Athene [] - when I get to a different computer (or just a different browser), I'll zoom in on them enough to be able to read them properly. (Or perhaps I should get out my reading glasses. [] [] )

I see the confusion about the Void and the stars - maybe this is one of the instances where Tolkien changed an idea over time?
The way I see it, Arda was created as a piece of non-void in the middle of the Void, but I thought that the stars were created as a part of Arda, not that they were there in the Void before the creation.
Rather confusing, if that is what Tolkien meant ...

Edit:
Just saw someone saying that Arda is the Solar system and Ëa is the Universe.

[ 07-27-2011, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Varnafindë ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Anyway, so far I think we agree nothing that complicated. A few long names and some detail in characteristics or places but plotwise fine. Just a creation tale really in a few pages. Nothing to get confused over. No complicated magic spells to remember either. So, onto the next chapter!
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Roll of Honor Athene
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Varna, very interesting idea. []

In Valaquenta it is stated that "a Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä". []

Later in V, JRRT states that Varda "knows all the regions of Eä", which makes it sound like Eä = Arda. Going back to Ainulindale, Ilúvatar had "made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is." []

Are we saying that the Void is oblivion, Eä is the universe, and Arda is the little world within Eä where all stuff happens? []

This seems moderately consistent but still leaves us with the problem of stars in the Void. I reckon, in all honesty, that it was a mistake. []

On another note, the Random Capitalisations, that make everything look very Mythic, are, how you say, Super Bloody Irritating. []

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Hamfast Gamgee
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If it was a mistake then it was probably bad editing by young Chris!
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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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I hope you don't mind, I added your useful charts to the first post, Athene. []
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Roll of Honor Athene
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Au contraire, I am flattered that my crappy Powerpoint efforts are worthy of a first post.
[]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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Crappy? Nay, they're most useful! []
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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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It looks like I'm no longer working this week so I think it's time to give this a bit of a shove. Let's all try to get Valaquenta read and discussed this week. It wasm eant to be last weeks goal but I'm not sure any of us actually posted anything about it. []
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Roll of Honor Athene
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Well, it prompted my Powerpoint presentation, but apart from that the only thing I have to say about Valaquenta is that it is a little like reading a table of Pokémon characteristics.
[]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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[]
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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I have two part time jobs, and at one of the offices I borrowed the color printer and printed Athene's charts. Makes the connection between the different Valar much clearer []

(At the other office, the site with her graphics charts was blocked as a porn site [] )

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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[] Varna.
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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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Maybe it's because I always found lists of Pokémon characteristics useful, but I think Valaquenta could be a useful 'reference' chapter when things get too confusing further on. []
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