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Roll of Honor pi
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Considering their location, wouldn't these two Dwarvish cities have survived (in some way) the War of Wrath? Any references to what happened to them?

quote:
It came to pass during the second age of the captivity of Melkor that Dwarves came over the Blue Mountains of Ered Luin into Beleriand. Themselves they named Khazâd, but the Sindar called them Naugrim, the Stunted People, and Gonnhirrim, Masters of Stone. Far to the east were the most ancient dwellings of the Naugrim, but they had delved for themselves great halls and mansions, after the manner of their kind, in the eastern side of Ered Luin; and those cities were named in their own tongue Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar. To the north of the great height of Mount Dolmed was Gabilgathol, which the Elves interpreted in their tongue Belegost, that is Mickleburg; and southward was delved Tumunzahar, by the Elves named Nogrod, the Hollowbold. Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazâd-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria; but it was far off in the Mountains of Mist beyond the wide leagues of Eriador, and to the Eldar came but as a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains.

From: Virgo Supercluster, 40º N 75º W | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Atmospherium
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Strictly off the top of my head, without looking things up, they may still survive, although much diminished. At the end of the Third Age Thorin had his dwellings in the Ered Luin, where there were still mines of the Dwarves. These may have been the remnants of the old cities. I tend to think of them as having been, if not destroyed, at least left in ruins after the War of Wrath.

Hold on...I just paused to look things up. In "Durin's Folk" (Appendix A in Lord of the Rings), third paragraph:
"...when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim."

And, from The Tale Of Years Of The Second Age in The Peoples Of Middle-earth:
"...About this time many dwarves fleeing from the ruins of the dwarf-cities in the Blue Mountains came to Moria."

From: The Niagara Frontier | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Atmospherium
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Comparing CJRT's maps of First Age Beleriand and Third Age Eriador, it appears that the ancient Dwarvish cities may have been located just about where the Gulf of Lune breaks through the Blue Mts. Maybe a bit further north. But I find it difficult to compare the maps with any great accuracy.

As a curious aside, Karen Wynn Fonstad placed Belegost a good 100 miles or more south of Nogrod in her Atlas, in spite of both the text and the map of the Silmarillion placing it a short distance to the north. I wonder why?

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Dolgthvari
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What Wikipedia says:

quote:
Relations between the remaining dwarfs of the Ered Luin and the Eldar of the newly founded Lindon - which included many survivors of Doriath amongst their number - must have remained at a low ebb due to the actions of the Firebeards, even after the War of Wrath, as during the early decades of the Second Age, "The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards..."[1]

Although a great many Dwarves of Belegost did indeed emigrate across Eriador some forty years after the war, to join with Durin's folk in Khazad-dûm, there is substantial evidence that some dwarfs remained to rebuild the ruins of Belegost in some form, although in much reduced if presumably independent circumstances. It seems likely that the seven Rings of Power given to seven Dwarf-lords during the Second Age for example, are analogous with the dwarfs' seven clans, amongst whom the Firebeards and Broadbeams are numbered.

Additionally, one of Tolkien's earlier maps, as shown by Christopher Tolkien in The Treason of Isengard (and also echoed in Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth) still shows Belegost in the Ered Luin in the time of the Third Age, indicating that Belegost may have survived the upheavals of the Second and early Third Ages, or that at least a more recognizable mansion had persisted therein than at Nogrod.



[ 08-10-2011, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Dolgthvari ]

From: Tumunzahar | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
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The Wikipedia article is completely useless.

Tolkien doesn't provide many details about what happened but seems that that the Dwarves of Belegost mostly moved to Khazad-dum while the few survivors of Nogrod apparently remained mostly in the Ered Luin. The few references to these Dwarves suggest that some survivors from both cities passed east but that some Dwarves remained in the Ered Luin through the Second and Third Ages.

There is no mention of further conflict between Elves and Dwarves in any of Tolkien's drafts, notes, and essays as published in The History of Middle-earth. They were, in fact, on friendly terms throughout the next two ages -- if not as warm and friendly as the Noldor of Eregion were with the Dwarves of Kazad-dum.

Tolkien does say in one place that the four "eastern houses" probably fell into evil. And of course "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says that few Dwarves fought on either side in the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, but that the Dwarves of Khazad-dum fought on the side of Elves and Men. One can therefore infer that some Dwarves (probably from the distant east) fought for Sauron.

I don't think it likely that descendants of Nogrod would have fought for Sauron.

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Snöwdog
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quote:
In "Durin's Folk" (Appendix A in Lord of the Rings), third paragraph:
"...when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim."

And
quote:
The Tale Of Years Of The Second Age in The Peoples Of Middle-earth:
"...About this time many dwarves fleeing from the ruins of the dwarf-cities in the Blue Mountains came to Moria."

Clearly the two cities were ruined in the breaking of Thangorodrim as the Ered Luin was broken and the Gulf of Lune formed. Clearly there were survivors who emigrated east to Khazad-dum, and there is a possible chance a remnent stayed in the north of the Ered Luin and scraped out a living mining. I believe King Arvedui holed up in an abandoned dwarf cave during their retreat from the Witch King's onslaught in TA 1974, but before seeking help from the Lossoth.
From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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