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Author Topic: Stain on the Moon?
Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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Gimli’s song in LotR, The world was fair in Durin's Day, tells of a prehistoric, Adam and Eve in the Garden time. The song has a line which seems curious (to me at least):

quote:
The world was young, the mountains green
No stain yet on the Moon was seen

Stain on the Moon? Does anyone know what this refers to? In The Silmarillion, when the Sun and the Moon are first set in the sky after the Darkening of Valinor:

quote:
Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious.
Was Tilion injured by this assault; is this the “stain” referred to in Gimli’s song? Or is it something else? Any ideas?
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Actually, I always thought that the attempts of Tilion to come close to Arien caused these stains.

quote:
§174 ...But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by the splendour of her beauty, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened.

[Annals of Aman, Morgoth's Ring]

I think that there may be some similar passages elsewhere. I just remembered seeing it here.

[ 02-28-2007, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Thorin ]

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Luke
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Thorin's reference possitively pinpoints the location of the stain, though why no other region of the moon was also darkened is a mystery.
as for the attack from Morgoth's forces, it seems highly unlikely that Tilion wouldn't recover and slowly repair any damage done to the moon's surface.
this "staining" of the moon, however, could be seen in a tragic light, which makes an attack of Morgoth more likely the cause than simply drawing near to the sun. if this is so, than Morgoth's forces were able to leave irreperable damage which even Tilion was unable to undo. this seems to fit the nature of his power which is demonstrated in the maring of middle earth.

it's been awhile since i've been in the Literary forum.

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Iarwain
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I always saw it as a more metaphorical statement. A sort of before things were worse, or a "when I was young the sun used to shine all day and it only rained at night". It could be seen as the view the darves had on the world before it was sullied in their eyes in some way.
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Thingol of Doriath
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Yes... you have to remember that this is coming from Gimli and probably has something more to do with Dwarven myths than Tilion and Arien.

E: When I first saw the thread title I thought it read: "Stalin on the moon" []

[ 02-28-2007, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: Thingol of Doriath ]

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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quote:
Yes... you have to remember that this is coming from Gimli and probably has something more to do with Dwarven myths than Tilion and Arien.
Why? The story of Tilion and Arien is a myth in and of itself. There are other alternatives for the creation of the sun and moon, for instance the moon was an alternate planet created by Morgoth to look down upon the world and cause a commotion. (See HoME 10)

Which myths do you want to accept and which do you want to discard? And I better not hear any shorter-stature-person prejudice! []

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Thingol of Doriath
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Well, first I was agreeing that it is probably just metaphorical. The moon was young.

As for Dwarven myths... I was thinking about the recent thread about Dwarven reincarnation (i.e. Durin). I've always thought of Dwarves as having their own belief system... separate from Elves and Men, though perhaps related.

This is just a theory... I'll be back with quotes and short jokes later. []

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Iarwain
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Sorry, no books to hand. At what point do we have the creation and awakening of the dwarves, in relation to the history of the sun and moon?
I re-read Gimli's song and it does seem to relate to a sort of Golden Age rather than an actual chronological time period. the staining (or stalining! [] )therefore could be a mind set, sort of rose coloured glasses in reverse.

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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quote:
It came to pass during the second age of the captivity of Melkor that Dwarves came over the Blue Mountains of Ered Luin into Beleriand.

[Of the Sindar, The Silmarillion]

According to the Silmarillion tradition, the Dwarves first made contact with the Elves during the captivity of Melkor - prior to the creation of the Sun and Moon. The Sun and Moon were created after Melkor was released and destroyed the Trees. Of course, this is first contact - they had been around even longer.

But I'm going to check other sources in HoME too... []

Edit: I see from the Nimruzir / Herendil Tale of Years that they have the Dwarves entering Beleriand at about 4750 in absolute dating, around 245 years prior to the destruction of the Trees. I'm not sure their sources on this - probably one of the Annals.

[ 02-28-2007, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Thorin ]

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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One quote from HoME II:
quote:
Telimektar and Ingil pursue him, and they remain now in the sky to ward it, and Melko stalks high above the air seeking ever to do a
hurt to the Sun and Moon and stars (eclipses, meteors).

I feel like I have read something of Earendil and the Eagles battling with dragons in the air to protect the moon but I haven't found it yet. Perhaps I'm imagining it or mingling several stories in my memory.
EDIT: Found it. During the Great Battle. The moon wasn't mentioned here. My bad.

[ 02-28-2007, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: The Dread Pirate Roberts ]

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Eluchil
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Thorin :
quote:
1250
§84 In this time also, it is said among the Sindar, the Naugrim whom we also name the Nornwaith (the Dwarves) came over the mountains into Beleriand and became known to the Elves.

The Annals of Aman.

quote:
1250
§19 In this year the Norn-folk came first over the mountains into Beleriand. This people the Noldor after named the Naugrim, whom some Men call Dwarves. Their most ancient dwellings were far to the East, but they had delved for themselves great halls and mansions, after the manner of their kind, on the east-side of Eryd Luin, north and south of Mount Dolmed, in those places which the Eldar named Belegost and Nogrod (but they Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar). Thence they now came forth and made themselves known to the Elves; and the Elves were amazed, for they had deemed themselves to be the only living things in Middle-earth that spoke with words or wrought with hands; and that all others were beasts and birds only.

The Grey Annals.


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Tuor
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The reference implies that the Moon was in existance when Durin awoke. This means that Gimli is making reference to a version of the history of Middle-earth which was not recorded in the Published Silmarillion.

The roots of the events described by Gimili would be consistant with the description of the timing of the creation of the Moon given in Myths Transformed Text II.

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Sjolden
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i always thought it referred to the pits and craters on the moon, thereby implying in that line that it was when the world was young. Just an opinion.
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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I believe those pits and craters were a result of Morgoth's attacks.
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Artaresto
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Makes sense that it's Morgoth's work, his destructive desire was unmatched. And he did assault the Moon as well. I believe the stains may have come from this assault [] .
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Sjolden
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And yes I also agree that it was Morgoth's attack on the moon that produced the pits and craters. I probably should have been a little more specific when i wrote that and said that i was talking about Gimli's poem
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Snöwdog
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So Morgoth's attacks by shadow spirits caused the pits and craters, and desire for Arien caused Tillion to be scorched, or stained? There was likely tales of the days that there was no stain on the moon passed down in song and saying.
quote:
Gimli is making reference to a version of the history of Middle-earth which was not recorded in the Published Silmarillion
Or was edited out by CT. []
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