posted
In a lot of the artwork depicting the Valar and the bodied Maiar, they are shown as pretty huge in comparison to the children of Ilúvatar. I am thinking of pictures of Fingolfin v. Morgoth, Fingon v. Gothmog, Aule and the dwarves. Assuming the elves are around 6 feet tall, the artists seem to assume Morgoth is around 15 feet and Gothmog around 12. The one artist's depiction I have seen of Aule and the dwarves make him seem around 15 feet tall, as well.
Are these gigantic sizes based on any evidence or is it mostly artistic license? There is the line about Morgoth towering over Fingolfin but those sorts of phrases are used for people just a foot or two taller, at times.
In Letter 246 Tolkien describes Sauron:
quote: Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.
Unless there is some other specific information out there, it seems to me that the description of Sauron above should likewise be applied to the stature of other bodied Valar and Maiar. The images by people like Naismith and Lee are impressive but perhaps exaggerated. Thoughts?
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread. ~ Ainulindalë - The Silmarillion
As can been seen the Valar can appear however they wish.
From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Of course, but there is little indication that they changed their forms on a daily basis like we change clothes. How would the Eldar recognize who they were talking to?
Also, it is said that once one becomes evil enough, one loses his ability to change shape or even shed physical form. I assume the balrogs were in this condition; we know Morgoth was, and Sauron became so later.
So generally speaking, on a day to day basis, how big were these guys?
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
If 'majesty and splendour' can be quantified you may have your answer
I had always assumed that the difference between the Valar and Eldar could be comparable to that of the first descriptions we get of Galadriel and Celeborn in FotR with, for instance, Haldir.
From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Good point. And I just recalled that I am possibly mistaken in my previous post. In "Of Aule and Yavanna" Manwe grows to a great height right before Yavanna's eyes, so certainly it isn't unheard of for them to change stature on the spur of the moment.
But the fact that they regularly interact with the Elves of the Blessed Realm and that Orome regularly rides a horse (that is presumably of normal stature) indicates that they seem to have a "preferred" size that isn't superhuman. And as stated, the baddies lose this ability altogether at some point.
I don't recall the comparison between Galadriel and Haldir but will look it up soon. (Got a staff meeting to go to right now.)
[ 02-27-2007, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: The Dread Pirate Roberts ]
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:But the 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and Men.
He doesn't mention size but if they're going to interact with Elves on a regular basis and their "shapes" are anthropomorphic then they (the "good" Ainur and Maiar at least) probably aren't running around at twice their height.
The evil ones, on the other hand, seeking to dominate Elves and Men, may very well have customarily clothed themselves with fairly huge and grotesque bodies, to their later chagrin. Like mom always said, "don't make those faces or one day it will stick that way!"
The jury is still out pending further search.
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I believe that Annatar wasn't 'fairly huge' with a 'grotesque body'; in fact he was quite the opposite if memory serves It was only when his 'body' was destroyed at the sinking of Númenor that he lost the ability to form a body fair to look upon.
From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
You've read the first post of the thread, right, Wetty? I'm aware of Sauron's various guises. You'll have to convince me that "Annatar" was the customary guise Sauron wore before he becomes relevant to this thread. I'm not sure Sauron even had one preferred look. He was known in early days as a shape changer.
Besides, my feeling is that they generally were not superhuge as depicted in much popular artwork. I'm thinking more like if Fingon is Kobe Bryant-sized then Gothmog is Shaq or maybe Yao Ming-sized. Yeah, the balrogs and Morgoth are big but probably not crazy-big.
[ 02-28-2007, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: The Dread Pirate Roberts ]
From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: Account has to be taken both of the great stature of the Númenóreans... an average height of six feet four inches; but this was at a later date, when the stature of the Dúnedain appears to have decreased, and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the observed average of male stature among them, but was an approximate length... It is however said of the great people of the past that they were more than a man-high. Elendil was said to be "more than man-high by nearly half a ranga;" but he was accounted the tallest of all the Númenóreans who escape the Downfall [and was indeed generally known as Elendil the Tall]. The Eldar of the Elder Days were also very tall. Galadriel, "the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell," was said to be man-high, but it is noted "according to the measure of the Dúnedain and the men of old," indicating a height of about six feet four inches...
[Appendix - Numenorean Linear Measures, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Unfinished Tales]
Some of these characters were very tall. Elendil was about 7'11", if I'm calculating this correctly. I imagine Aragorn was over 6'4", which was the "average" height of Numenoreans in decline. Galadriel was 6'4".
Just my own opinion, but I can't imagine Elendil looking down on Sauron during their encounter on the slopes of Mount Doom. I personally think that Sauron must have been 8' or more. I don't have anything to back that up besides a vague feeling that Sauron would have been larger.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Sorry. I cut out some of that passage to try to make it more coherent regarding the height of some individuals. Ranga is a Numenorean term for length equivalent to 38 inches.
quote: The Numenorean ranga was slightly longer than our yard, approximately thirty-eight inches, owing to their great stature... Thus two rangar was often called "man-high," which at thirty-eight inches gives an average height of six feet four inches; but this was at a later date, when the stature of the Dúnedain appears to have decreased, and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the observed average of male stature among them, but was an approximate length expressed in the well-known unit ranga. (The ranga is often said to have been the length of the stride, from rear heel to front toe, of a full-grown man marching swiftly but at ease; a full stride "might be well nigh a ranga and a half.")
[ 03-01-2007, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Thorin ]
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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