posted
Does anyone know how old Celeborn is? he's a kinsman of Thingol, but does that mean he was born at Cuivienen(?), or on the Great Jouney, or at Doriath?
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
It's tough to tell. I don't think that the precise details of his birth and ancestry were ever completely decided. In one of the late writings, he is the grandson of Olwë of Alqualondë. (See The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales) I've never seen anything that points to him being one of the original elves to awake. I believe the latest information relates to him being born in Alqualondë.
For an idea of some of the difficulties regarding Celeborn, Christopher notes in UT:
quote: On the other hand, the making of Celeborn into a Telerin Elf of Aman contradicts not only statements in The Silmarillion, but also those cited already (p. 228) from The Road Goes Ever On and Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings, where Celeborn is a Sindarin Elf of Beleriand As to why this fundamental alteration in his history was to be made, it might be answered that it arose from the new narrative element of Galadriel's departure from Aman separately from the hosts of the rebel Noldor; but Celeborn is already transformed into a Telerin Elf in the text cited on p.242–43, where Galadriel did not take part in Fëanor's revolt and march from Valinor, and where there is no indications of how Celeborn came to Middle-earth.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Ahhhh, okay, because in another version, i read that Galadriel came to Doriath, she met Celeborn, and they lived happily ever after.
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Yes, that's the "Silmarillion tradition," as I like to call it. The problem is that I do not believe that particular idea was the last thought of the Professor. Does that eliminate it? Of course not - I think it's perfectly valid.
But trying to follow the Professor's evolving stories and ideas is difficult. Trying to decide which is "correct" is time consuming and sometimes unprofitable. There are a variety of views on the best way to interpret these different stories.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
In any version... he was definitely not born at Cuiviénen.
First Age, at any rate. Depending on the version I would say Aman(if he is Teleri) or Doriath(if he was Sindar). Exact age would be difficult to pinpoint...
From: Sverige! | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Well, sometimes the term First Age seems to be used in a sense including the Years of the Trees and even the Valian Years before that.
But otherwise I agree, I was already typing when Eluchil's post came: The only fact that can be added for certain, is that in the version where he is Teler (grandson of Olwë), he was born before the Moon and the Sun rose, and some time before, because at the time of the Kinslaying of Alqualondë he was old enough to fight and to have a ship under his command on which he and Galadriel left for M-e, so definitely during the Years of the Trees.
In the other version, where he is Sinda (grandson of Elmo, brother of Elwë and Olwë), we have no further information, but one rather gets the impression that he would have been about the same age, i.e. born some time before the Years of the Sun.
Speculating a bit further, he would in either case probably be of the same generation as Galadriel (granddaughter of Finwë, and again, it is only an assumption that Finwë was of the same generation as Elwë, Olwë and Elmo, but a plausible one) so he could reasonably be about as old as she (8372 years of the Sun (equivalent) at the time of the War of the Ring), or as her elder brother Finrod or their cousin Turgon (both 62 years of the Trees, equivalent to 594 (proleptic) years of the Sun, older than she).
posted
Wow. You people really know your stuff, don't you.
I didn't really expect him to be born at Cuiviénen, just as an idea. But yeah, being around the same age, if not slightly older, the Galadriel, seems reasonable.
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I would add what I feel is an important distinction though: a published idea (published by Tolkien himself) versus various other 'unpublished' ideas (though this speaks to clan, not age specifically).
Published idea
Celeborn as one of the Sindar
Published in The Return of the King first edition (revised wording impacted this passage however). Idea published again however in The Road Goes Ever On
quote: '... refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' JRRT RGEO
Unpublished ideas
Nando
In all probability according to Christopher Tolkien. See commentary in Unfinished Tales.
Avar?
In 1963 Tolkien commented that 'Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm.' (reported by Hammond And Scull in RC, based on a previously unpublished letter)
Teler of Aman
1972 Letter and see further in Unfinished Tales. A very late concept.
So one might indeed argue that Tolkien appears to have intended to make Celeborn a Teler of Aman, but having never done so in any published work this action might also be characterized as 'possibly' taken. JRRT also desired to tinker with -ros for example, but seems to have changed his mind after having remembered he published Andros in The Lord of the Rings.
Considering what Tolkien himself did decide to put into print we are given no great reason to think he meant 'Teler of Aman' by describing Celeborn as one of the Sindar (simply because the Sindar were Telerin in origin). That's a possible path to take, yes, and granted Tolkien might have explained the RGEO description in that way, but in the end he never did (or got a chance to), which leaves us with a 'might have been' explanation theoretically attached to admittedly late, but also essentially 'private' musings (by comparison with RGEO).
While a 'last' or 'late written' text might be quite compelling in a stack of unpublished ideas, here we do have JRRT deciding to make something public however (and twice actually); and from Tolkien, a world class 'niggler' one might add.
posted
As far as I know, Celeborn is accounted as one of the Sindarin Elves (subset if the Telerian Elves) and predates the First Age. There is no specific birth date given (as is very often the case).
Tolkien's last writings (unpublished I beleive) had Celeborn meeting Galadriel while she was living in Alqualonde before the rebellion and they left when the Noldor left for Middle-Earth.
Interesting side note, in Telerin Quenya, Celeborn's name is Teleporno
[ 10-18-2006, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Prince Imrahil ]
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-Minas Tirith
From: Dor-En-Ernil, Belfalas (by way of VA) | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Celeborn is a secondary character to Galadriel. Therefore his identity is linked to Galadriel's. Letters does leave us a clue as to whether or not the Teleri Celeborn is just a private musing or an actual important change for JRR.
Letter 142 is the first mention of a link between the Virgin Mary and Galdariel. Father Robert Murray made the connection between the two and JRR said: "I think I know exactly what you mean by the order of Grace; and of course by your references to Our Lady"
I read this as a positive connection between the two as early as December of '53.
Then we have written in January of 1971, Letter 320 says this concerning Galadriel and Mary:
I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians)
Anyone wanting to see these connections can use the index as I've done to see the Letters attributed to the connection between Galdariel and Mary. Yet there is one other which I believe is the linchpin to the story Tolkien actually intended.
From Letter 353 written in August of 1973
Galadriel was 'unstained': she had committed no evil deeds. She was an enemy of Feanor. She did not reach Middle-earth with theo other Noldor, but independently.
Tolkien is telling Lord Halsbury which version of the Galadriel story is correct. Yet the question is, why the need for a change? I believe the answer to that lies in the Galadriel - Mary connection. The new story where Celeborn is a Teleri who brings Galadriel to Middle-earth was necessary to distance Galdriel's trip to Middle-earth from the rest of the Noldor. This was necessary to bring Galadriel's character more into line with the Virgin Mary.
From: Oklahoma | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote: Celeborn is a secondary character to Galadriel. Therefore his identity is linked to Galadriel's. Letters does leave us a clue as to whether or not the Teleri Celeborn is just a private musing or an actual important change for JRR.
Important is not the same as private (or published) however.
quote: Tolkien is telling Lord Halsbury which version of the Galadriel story is correct. Yet the question is, why the need for a change? I believe the answer to that lies in the Galadriel - Mary connection. The new story where Celeborn is a Teleri who brings Galadriel to Middle-earth was necessary to distance Galdriel's trip to Middle-earth from the rest of the Noldor. This was necessary to bring Galadriel's character more into line with the Virgin Mary.
I've no doubt this was important to the Catholic JRRT. It is not however, what he published for public eyes, and does not change what he did publish about Galadriel or Celeborn.
Incidentally Celeborn was thought of as a grandson of one of Thingol's brothers... in one conception Elmo, in another Olwe. In an essay published in Unfinished Tales Celeborn 'the Teler' was Olwe's grandson (Galadriel being Olwe's grand-daughter).
quote: It is not however, what he published for public eyes, and does not change what he did publish about Galadriel or Celeborn (note too that in the Celeborn as Teler idea Celeborn and Galadriel would be first cousins).
My attempt was not to deal with the later thought vs. published issue. People are free to give weight to stories however they see fit. I was attempting to deal with the issue of Celeborn the Teleri as Tolkien's private musings as opposed to an important change to his story.
I am of the Later Thoughts point of view. Therefore I was giving the reasons why I believe that Tolkien finally came to accept one paticular story and therefore rejected the others.
AFAIK, his letter to Lord Halsbury is the latest description of Galadriel's story according to Tolkien. His description post dates the writing of the story itself. Therefore this letter is evidence where Tolkien is saying "this is the story I want told".
I also attempted to explain why Tolkien would believe the change is necessary. As I said to begin with, Celeborn is a secondary character. His identity is totally based on Galadriel's story.
From: Oklahoma | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
We can discuss the letters in depth, discuss the importance of 'this', the date of 'that'. I quote them, though sometimes they do not reflect what JRRT wrote elsewhere for example. But in the end they are not the same animal as Tolkien sitting down to write a tale intended for possible publication. And of course they also did not 'pass the same test' (nor did the variant accounts in Unfinished Tales) as writings Tolkien sent to A&U for publication.
In my opinion Galadriel's 'latest' history is not the best version here, nor am I certain that Tolkien, after looking at what he wrote, published or implied already, would have made Galadriel 'too good'. That may be my taste (today! anyway) but in any case JRRT could have ended the letter 'this is the story I will tell' but even that is only a 'might have been' and simply not the story he did tell.
Important ideas, all kinds of ideas, strike; and Tolkien had plenty of ideas about Celeborn: after publishing that Celeborn was Sindarin Tolkien writes a letter implying that Celeborn is Avarin -- arguably because he is there focused on why Celeborn stays in Middle-earth when Galadriel sails.
posted
I think it is best if we do used the published text only, as that's the one most people aregoing to have read.
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Welcome to MT, Jammi, if I haven't said that yet. If you are interested in the problem of differing versions, here is an old thread where we discussed it. Order of Precedence - Canonical Works
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Galadriel and Celeborn are a "repetition" of the Melian and Thingol theme. (Part of) the reason that Tolkien wanted Celeborn to be from Aman and thus to be a High Elf may be that Thingol was counted among these since he had seen the light of the Trees.
From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
And I'll stress a couple things if I may: Tolkien wrote an essay where he desired to give a certain history to ROS. It's detailed enough that I won't go into it here (and many are already aware of it, especially the fans of the languages), but the point is, in the end, he 'realized' that most of it failed.
Why? One word. Or one published word I should say (Andros).
Obviously Tolkien didn't remember everything he had published when working on the stories, but hey The Lord of the Rings is a long and detailed work of course, nothing wrong with that. This essay was also a private musing (which does not mean it was not important) simply because no one would ever see it (or so Tolkien himself must have thought). Note too that Tolkien would not feel bound to write 'this fails because...' on any given unpublished text, even if he remembered or thought of a reason why some detail might be problematic (in his view). In any case, Andros is published, -ros is implied to be Elvish, this name went to printers and became part of the primary source.
Letters is indeed a wonderful source but as I say a different animal, including that Tolkien is sometimes reacting to what he was asked, or what was said (or what kind of mood something might have put him in), or (arguably) who is doing the asking. A Priest? A linguist? A Reader? His Son? Tolkien is human and this is bound to be 'part of' (in some measure) what he writes in a letter.
Looking at The Road Goes Ever On. What is Tolkien about there? what is the 'framework' (of sorts) when he relates that Galadriel '... was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.'?
It's Namárië, Galadriel's Lament in Lorien, Galadriel's song from The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien is back in his element here, telling tales while explaining his Elvish constructions; tales related to what he had published. And revealed is another part of story of Galadriel while explaining her song.
And keep in mind this is a relatively late date (not the latest, no) but Tolkien can't just get 'philosophical' here -- well he can, but he's not explaining something to a priest here, and if his concerns are only philosophical... well, this is going to go to print, and to an imaginative writer with a penchant for revision this is the 'test'. I don't want to overstress the matter though. I don't imagine Tolkien pulling out his hair for weeks, or fearful of putting something in print (heck he even revised some of that when given the chance), but what I am saying is that to send off the final draft does take a level of acceptance the 'still working' draft needn't worry about (to give the story some emotion of its own).
And Tolkien cared what he had put into print. Even if he did not always remember every detail of what that was, or had philosophical rather than 'historical reasons' for looking at a given scenario in a new way. We can see, along with Christopher Tolkien, the obvious intent behind the 'new draft' history of Teleporno (and Tuor and Herendil have made great points indeed), but even Christopher cannot know what Tolkien himself would have decided had his father set out to see just what it was that he had published, or whether or not even some unpublished detail (like the family tree of Galadriel and Celeborn maybe) would have suddenly struck him as unacceptable for some reason.
When dealing with 'Silmarillion writings' the game is a bit different in my opinion. But still there is something of the First Age in the primary source. We have no choice to accept that the author himself did not publish his full legendarium, and no choice but to realize that Tolkien (though he would indulge in certain intended variations due to variant sources for example) must have left certain ideas behind for others -- they weren't all intended variants and so the 'latest' idea indeed looms large in a given discussion. And Tolkien also has no choice but to accept, for example, that Celebrimbor was descended from Feanor (The Return of the King), not a Teler who accompanied Celeborn into exile (see Of Dwarves And Men).
At least accept that he had published it... after that who knows
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. From my point of view you are too locked into what was published. You do not believe that if Tolkien had more time he would have revised the Lord of the Rings on this matter. The reason why I believe it is likely that he would can be found in my sig.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.
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