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Author Topic: Ilúvatar
Lórien
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Hey guys,(this may sound like a stupid question or impossible even.)
I read BoLT part 1 and the person most of you call "Eru" is called "Ilúvatar" in BoLT. Do any of you know why it is so? Which one is used in the Silmarilion and which one is most recognized. Which one do yuo recomment?
thanks

[ 06-09-2006, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Lòrien ]

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Both names are used in Silmarillion. Possibly Illúvatar was the first name Tolkien used (thus in BoLT), and Eru was a later addition? The Valaquenta, the second book in the Silmarillion, starts,
quote:
In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought
Sometimes the two names are even used together, naming him Eru Illúvatar.

Perhaps the idea is that it is really the same name, only in two different languages, both versions meaning the One - but someone else would know more than I do about just that.

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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Lòrien,

Eru Ilúvatar is comprised of two distinct names for the Supreme Creator in Tolkien's legendarium. In The Silmarillion -- or at least in the Valaquenta -- they seem to be used interchangeably. That's because each name expresses the nature of the Supreme Creator in a different and unique way.

For instance, Eru is a Quenya word (at least in this form) tha t literally means "The One". The root is er- which means "solitary, one, alone". You also find this root in words like the adjective erya ("single or alone") and Tol Eressëa, the "Lonely Isle".

Ilúvatar, OTOH, means something different altoghether: "All-Father", from ilu, "the whole" or ilúvë, "allness, everything" and atar, "father".

That these are Quenya names for the Supreme Creator probably has more to do with the fact that Quenya was the language of Aman, and that the Valar used Quenya to teach the Eldar about creation, Eru and the the Ainulindalë.

As for why there's no Sindarin name equivalent of "Eru Ilúvatar" I guess the nearest to an explanation as we can get is that Tolkien says there was little or no religion or what we would call worship in Middle-earth. In any event, the Sindar were more likely to invoke a particular Vala such as Elbereth (Varda).

Of course I realize this may not make a bit of sense to you since I believe you haven't read The Silmarillion yet. If you can get through BoLT and still enjoy it without reading Sil, then hat's off to ya... [] [] []

[ 06-09-2006, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Silmahtar ]

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Tuor
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I use Eru because it is easier to type.
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
Ilúvatar, OTOH, means something different altoghether: "All-Father", from ilu, "the whole" or ilúvë, "allness, everything" and atar, "father".
Good, that's what I wasn't sure about!
There's always something new to learn ...

And I'd say, read the Silmarillion as soon as you can get hold of it.

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Lórien
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I don't own the book so I have to get it from a library and they didn't have it... so I will content myself with looking around here until its in []
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
Ilúvatar, OTOH, means something different altoghether: "All-Father", from ilu, "the whole" or ilúvë, "allness, everything" and atar, "father".
This matches the Norse Odin, i.e. the "all-father."

[ 06-10-2006, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Lórien
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Silmathar I read the first "book" of BoLT and enjoyed it very much!althoguht it was kinda confusing. and I also learned somethign about Elbereth! I didn't know Elbereth was Varda... you learn something new every day... thanks

[ 06-10-2006, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Lòrien ]

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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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quote:
This matches the Norse Odin, i.e. the "all-father."
Does anyone know what the name "Odin" means? Is it in fact a Norse word originally? Because I just though of something interesting: the Russian word for "one" is odin (pronounced ah-DEEN).
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Odin is from Old Norse Óðinn, which I guess is related to the word óðr, meaning "excitation," "fury" or "poetry." Is there anyone more familiar with Old Norse around who can offer more information?
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Lórien
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um this is kinda off topic. but thats fine.
one more question which do you guys prefer.
Ilúvatar or Eru?

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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We often prefer Eru because it is easier to type []
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Oh! Sorry. []

I prefer Ilúvatar because I like the sound of it better. []

But Eru might be more "correct." I'm not sure.

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Q
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Using "Illuvatar" is stereotypical of elves who say it all the time...

one should never not make this stereotipical observation.

[ 06-11-2006, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: MANDOS ]

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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Thanks, Rocky for the bit about Odin. That explains why he's referred to as "The Furor" in A.A. Attanasio's intepretation of the Arthurian legend (The Dragon and the Unicorn, The Eagle and th Sword, et. al.)

I also prefer Eru because it's easier and faster to type. But within the internal reality of Tolkien's legendarium, I would venture to say that Eru is the more correct name since that is the name the Creator is first called in the beginning of the Ainulindale:
quote:
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar...
Note, too the redundancy of the first phrase: "Eru" and "the One" as if to emphasize the nature of his being. It makes sense that Eru was "the One" first before he was the "All-Father".
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Lórien
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okay then Eru it is!
case closed

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