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Minas Tirith Forums » Silmarillion » Varda's nature? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Varda's nature?
Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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quote:
out of the deeps of Eä she came to aid Manwë
what is the meaning of this? was Varda not made by illuvatar? did she not take part in the music?
From: Ruatha Hold | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Ecthelion of the Fountain
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you wanna give more of the quote? would make things alot easier, and if you could cite your source?
From: seattle, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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sure.the silm,the bit about varda in the valaquenta.
quote:
With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy. Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made. Manwë and Varda are seldom parted, and they remain in Valinor.
and theres another odd bit.before the making of the music? WAS there a before the making of the music?

[ 12-13-2002, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Maltariel ]

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Eol the Dark Elf
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I'm not sure why this quote is incompatible with her having taken part in the music: Ea was the "universe", so in coming to Arda she went only to an area of Ea. Also all the Ainur did not go to Arda, and like Tulkas there were "late-comers": Varda seems to have a arrived a little later, in that we are told she came to aid Manwe, implying he was there already (?)

There must have been a "before the music" the music since the Ainur must have been created. That said though, the whole idea of time seems difficult, I find, to integrate into this sort of context. After Ea! came the Ainlindale. I think, I'm hazier than I thought I was, on this subject. []

[ 12-14-2002, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: Eöl the Dark Elf ]

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Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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yes but its the out of the deeps she came bit that confuses me;it makes it sound like she was not crated,but came from somewhere else.
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Dark Lord Andúril
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I think Ea actually referres to the word 'Be!' As in the World that Is.

She could have easily went into the deeps of Ea, from the Timeless Halls and then came out from them to give aid to Manwe.

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Eol the Dark Elf
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Well, if I understand the layout of terms, The Void was all of Ea that was that not Arda (and not The Timeless Halls), so in entering Arda she did come from The Halls. I understand what you're saying; but Varda did come from the Halls, so the phrasing is apt, if a little confusing.
She was created as all of he Ainur, and did take part, as far as I know anyway []

[ 12-13-2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Eöl the Dark Elf ]

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Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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eol>im sure she was, its just that the phrasing thats confusing-i wouldnt have said the timeless halls were the depths of ea.
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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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If you think about it, all the Valar came from the depths of Eä. Eä is the universe it its entirety, anything not of Eä is the void and hence the Timeless Halls.

Anduril has it, Varda could very well have existed in a different part of Eä, attempting to construct that which see saw in the vision, as the others were. When the Valar arrived, there was nothing, similar to entering into an empty room. Tolkien never says the Valar were all together upon their creation of the World, not all of them. It's very plausable that Varda was off on her own, then joining Manwe later upon his battle with Melkor.

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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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If you think about it, all the Valar came from the depths of Eä. Eä is the universe in its entirety, anything not of Eä is the void and hence the Timeless Halls.

Anduril has it, Varda could very well have existed in a different part of Eä, attempting to construct that which see saw in the vision, as the others were. When the Valar arrived, there was nothing, similar to entering into an empty room. Tolkien never says the Valar were all together upon their creation of the World, not all of them. It's very plausable that Varda was off on her own, then joining Manwe later upon his battle with Melkor.

[ 12-13-2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

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Dark Lord Andúril
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I think you are all correct apart from one thing. Ea referrs to Arda and only arda. The Timeless Halls are anywhere that the music could be heard. And the Void, was just void. Thats all it was.
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Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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it sounds like all we have to do is work out what ea actually is!
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Dark Lord Andúril
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Ea, as it clearly states in the Silmarillion, id the "world that is". This referrs only to arda.
quote:
it was in the void but no of it
we can therefore assume thst the void was NOT part of Ea. The Timeless Halls were also not part of Ea because they were just places where sound was. They were not a product of the music, as was Arda.
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Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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then we are to assume she came from th centre of the earth?
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Dark Lord Andúril
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No, we can assume that she came from the earth at one point. She could have always come from the Timeless Halls to the deeps, then come up from the deeps to aid Manwe when she was aware he needed aid.
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Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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i think youve got it!
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Eol the Dark Elf
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Spot on, Anduril:

But when the Valar entered into Ea...

I had this completely confused []

From: Nan Elmoth | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orofacion of the Vanyar
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Thought I had the Eä factor summed up, but I'll use better phrasing next time.

quote:
The Timeless Halls were also not part of Ea because they were just places where sound was.
A slightly crude assesment isn't this Anduril.

quote:
then we are to assume she came from th centre of the earth?
Well there wasn't really an earth to speak of was there? Think of it as more like she came out of a the depths of what was, whatever it was.

Thank you as well for creating this topic. The genesis aspects of mythology are my favorite. []

[ 12-15-2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

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Dark Lord Andúril
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A crude assesment? I think not. If you read about when the music was unfolding, it talk about the "sound and the echos of the sound went into the void, and it was not void."

Remember that Eru had not given the Valar sight before he showed them Ea. They could only listen. So the void, was a void of sound, therefore anywhere the music was, the void was not.

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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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I realize what you were saying I just consider the Timeless Halls as a bit more than "just places where sound was." []
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Dark Lord Andúril
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Well, maybe they were afterwards, but all the Ainur ever did was sing, all they needed to have were good ecoustics...
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Snöwdog
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quote:
"With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy. Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made. Manwë and Varda are seldom parted, and they remain in Valinor."
 -
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Húrin Greenleaf
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I'm afraid, Snöwdog, that the woman depicted can't compete with Varda. You said yourself that, 'Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves'.

When I heard that Liv Tyler was going to play Arwen, I felt sad for her. If you're going to portray someone who is supposed to resemble her great-great-grandmother, the most beautiful person among both Elves and Men, that's quite a mountain to try and climb!

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Gollum Gollum
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Still, after watching "The hunt for Gollum" I thought: "Liv Tyler wasn't that bad after all"...

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Snöwdog
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quote:
I'm afraid, Snöwdog, that the woman depicted can't compete with Varda.
Yeah, I suppose. Its interesting what comes up on a Google search image of Varda. []
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