posted
When I read the Sil, I thought Fingolfin was nicer too. Then I read the Shibboleth, which exposes him (Fingolfin) for the dirty, rotten, ambitious jerk he really is.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- To gain that which is worth having, it may be necessary to lose everything else. ~Bernadette Devlin http://www.shonjir.net
From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
The fact is that if Fëanor didn't have the courage to pursue Morgoth, all of Middle-earth would come under Morgoth's rule. And when people say that Luthien was greater than Fëanor, don't they realize that all she did was take a Silmaril, which although is great, is something that Fëanor made in the first place! If it wasn't for Fëanor's creation, Luthien could not have done that great deed of taking his creation.
The las person to post your list: You said Finrod was #1 for keeping his oath. What about Fëanor and all his sons? They all kept their oath to their deaths as well.
From: Philadelphia | Registered: Jan 2003
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For me there is a difference between oath and oath. I belive its much more honourable to keep your promise to someone you swore (sp?) to help out if needed. And, sorry, its less honourable to keep your promise to get back something that belongs to you. Revenge over material things (even as great as Silmarils were) is never a good thing or is it? So yes, Feanor and his sons kept their oath, but it was not a very good oath to keep. Not saying Feanor was a jerk.
From: Thule/Estonia | Registered: Apr 2003
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Question is, were the silmarils just material goods?
They were the holy jewells, they contained the light of the two trees, its like saying that the two trees were material goods.
Could one say that the light of the sun is just a material good? Could one say that if something or someone took away our sun and moon 'oh nevermind, they are just material goods'. We must remember that the silmarills werent just diamonds or precious stones, they captured and radiated the light of the trees. I dont think it can be correct to simply call them material goods. Besides it wasnt just the stealing of the silmarills that caused feanor to make his oath, it was the killing of his father and the destruction of the two trees which played a greater part in his decision.
I would agree with you anduril that from the silmarilion fingolfin is a nicer person, but i dont believe that being a 'nicer' person makes you greater than someone else. Unless the 'other' person is 'evil', as i do not believe evil can be great. Feanor in my opinion was certainly not evil. Fingolfin is on my list, but feanor is top, i still dont get why earendil isnt on everyones list at one place or another.
From: leeds | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sure, silmarils wasnot just material goods, but the fact is Feanor wanted to keep them, he didnt want to use them for common good or something. He didnt offer silmarils to replace two trees when they were destroyed as far as I can remember. Feanor had the tendency to put himself first in everything. He even asked his sons to keep the oath and to revenge his death (correct?), what does it say about him as a father? I havent read HoME series, so my thoughts are based on Silmarillion only. I may be wrong.
From: Thule/Estonia | Registered: Apr 2003
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All it means is that I am bumping up the thread, so more people can see it, stopping it going into the depths of the MT archives.
From: In Imladris I dwell... | Registered: Sep 2002
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wish i could chat with you again, but recently i'm losing my touch of obtaining chat allowing computers. But don't forget to leave the fishfingers warm for me!
From: Serapion | Registered: Jan 2003
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It is stated in home in the second prophecy of mandos that after melko returns, turin shall kill him, then the silmarils be recovered, earendil shall yield his light in possesion to feanor and feanor shall yield HIS jewels to the two trees that will flourish again and the gods will grow young again and the eldar reborn. In te silmarilion it is not statd. I think this is a perfect ending (or beggining as tolkien intended) for tolkiens myths.
From: leeds | Registered: Jan 2003
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Why recreate the two trees when the lamps were great enough to light all of Arda? I want my lamps!
From: Philadelphia | Registered: Jan 2003
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No Curufin, I believe hte question was, why not recreate the lamps. I dont know, possibly the Valar preferred the trees?
From: In Imladris I dwell... | Registered: Sep 2002
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To get back to the original point My top five elves
1. Elu Thingol; because
quote: King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the Maiar, whose power is at rest, whose joy is as an air that they breathe in all their days, whose thought flows in a tide untroubled from the heights to the deeps.
How many other elves are splendid enough for a Maia to fall in love with them?
2. Celeborn; pretty clearly the kind of elf who doesn't *want* power, but ends up wielding it because people ask him to. Makes him a very unusual player in the politics of Ennor. Easy to overlook, but outlives both Morgoth and Sauron, and is one of the few Sindar to be almost accepted into the Noldorin power structure. He's a really interesting character.
3. Galadriel; OK she's vain and power mad, but that makes her rather a fun character.
4. Fingon the Valiant; because of his rescue of Maedhros, despite his friend having left him behind on the treck to ME. Wonderful act of forgiveness. The dragon-driving-off was cool too.
5. Luthien; does what Feanor and all his sons could not - gets a Silmaril back from Morgoth.
From: Doriath | Registered: Jul 2004
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- Feanor: Most brilliant. Does not make him a good guy, but I don't think the power of his mind is under dispute.
- Fingolfin: Most valiant.
- Earendil: Carried out what seemed to be a hopeless quest. Also fought in the war of wrath and turned the tide of battle along with mates Thorondor and co. Still guarding the door of night.
- Elrond: Fought against Sauron for around 1800 years in the second age. Provided solid leadership to his people.
- Tie: Thingol & Turgon. Both were pragmatic and did what they had to to protect their people. This was a tossup between Thingol and Turgon, both had some advantages (the help of Melian and Ulmo) but they did the right thing with that help.
I have tried not to count single acts of bravery such as Ecthelion, as we don't know much about them beyond the fight. Fingolfin is the exception as he was brave (or suicidal) enough to fight Morgoth.
I also think that Celebrimbor and Daeron are worth a mention for their unique skills.
Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:"Feanor: Most brilliant. Does not make him a good guy, but I don't think the power of his mind is under dispute."
The Maus II was the newest, largest, strongest and most magnificent of the german battle tanks of WWII, but there are reasons it isn't regarded the best or most successful tank of the war on the german side (by any strech); it failed to carry out its mission goals, it cost too much and only further emptied the R&D budget while not contributing to the larger effort in any way, in fact it was just wasted on a few futile campaigns against a superior foe that immediately crushed it.
The vanity and grandeur of its fat armor and large size proved its downfall as it was too inflexible and single-minded in purpose, effectively worthless for anything but the most basic tactical assault (which was easily countered). So in the end, its alleged brilliance never got a chance to be put to use, other than what the creator had once claimed it was capable of.
But hey, it looked promising.
From: Sueonia, Land of strife | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I have to disagree to the fact that the Fingolfin depicted in the Shibboleth is a jerk. I think that both in Later Quentas and the Shibboleth of Fëanor, there is a greater reason of why Fëanor was so angry at his brother Fingolfin that I feel that is lacking in the Published Silmarillion, but that in no case IMO makes Fingolfin a jerk. From the Later Quentas
quote:§52e But even as he spoke, suddenly Fëanor appeared, and he strode into the chamber tall and threatening. A fire of anger was in his eyes, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said: 'my half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters. He would not wait for the council, where all words would be heard by all, and answered. He would speak against me in secret. This I will not brook!' he cried, turning upon Fingolfin. 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' Then as a flash of flame he drew his sword. 'Get thee gone and dare my wrath no longer!'
From the Shibboleth of Fëanor
quote:As he said with some justice: 'My brother's claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?' But Fingolfin answered: 'I have not rejected the Valar, nor their authority in all matters where it is just for them to use it. But if the Eldar were given free choice to leave Middle-earth and go to Aman, and accepted it because of the loveliness and bliss of that land, their free choice to leave it and return to Middle-earth, when it has become dark and desecrated, cannot be taken away. Moreover I have an errand in Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us. Fëanor seeks first his stolen treasures.' [It is said in the text at this point that Fingolfin claimed to be 'the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë', and the same was said in the essay proper (p. 336). All the texts agree that after the banishment of Fëanor from Tirion, and the departure of Finwë with him to Formenos, Fingolfin ruled the Ñoldor in Tirion; and it was said in the Quenta Silmarillion (see IV.95, V.235) that afterwards, when the Flight of the Ñoldor began, those of Tirion 'would not now renounce the kingship of Fingolfin'. On the other hand, in the final story of the events leading to the Flight, when Fëanor and Fingolfin had become half-brothers, they were reconciled 'in word' before the throne of Manwë at the fateful festival; and in that reconciliation Fingolfin said to Fëanor: 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' (see X.I 97, 287).]
Now, as to my five top Elves: Fëanor, most brilliant of all of the Children of Ilúvatar. Lúthien, greatest of the Elves. Fingolfin, challenged Morgoth Bauglir. Galadriel, survived in ME when all of her fellow leader of the rebellion of the Ñoldor didn't. Maedhros, I chose his name didn't I?
From: Formenos | Registered: Jul 2004
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Arknell - I see your point. However Feanor was more than promising. Afterall he did create the Silmarils and many other (unspecified) things, including possibly the palantir.
That's more than promise.
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
That's true. Though I think the palantíri were put to better use than the silmarils.
From: Sueonia, Land of strife | Registered: Aug 2003
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