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Author Topic: Different types of Stars?
The Laurenendôrian
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quote:
And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars.
quote:
With Manwл dwelt Varda the most beautiful, she who in the Sindarin tongue is named Elbereth, Queen of the Valar, maker of the stars; and with than were a great host of spirits in blessedness.
The first quotation shows that the stars were extant before Eä!, yet the second indicates that they were made by Varda, after the Valar came into the world.

Who will read this riddle?

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Roll of Honor Kosomot
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I believe it refers to the great stars and star formations like Meneltarma and Valacirya. those stars were set as a mark by Varda that Melkor will be conquered (for the first time). Also, the Elves woke when those stars were kindled. I´m in school so I can´t check this.
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Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
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Can we have a reference for the first quote? Or maybe a little more of what comes before it...
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Kullervo, is right:

In the Later Quenta Silmarillion the revised story and I believe that also included in the published simarillion was that Varda began making newer and brighter stars as can be also seen in a late emendation of the Ainulindale where "she who wrought the stars" was changed to "she who wrought the great stars"

[ 02-20-2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

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Imbëar
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I can read this riddle right:

Ilúvatar conceives of Ëa, which will be subject to Time, hence the deeps of time, and will be isolated among the Stars; here, specifically, the dwelling place foreseen is the planet Ambar. The account takes the omniscient view, yet presents a later knowledge, causing a "seeming" contradiction.
How does one report what IS now, from Eru's pre-existent perspective?
Even the word perspective implies incorrectly that Eru "sees" as humans do.

The quotes are not at odds. The concepts Void and Being are.

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Imbëar

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Roll of Honor Kosomot
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I had a dream last night that I was visiting Minas Tirith, and The L. had deleted this topic! Thought you should know.
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Snöwdog
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quote:
Who will read this riddle?
Simple. Ilúvatar chose a place for his Children to dwell "in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars."

And "Varda the most beautiful, she who in the Sindarin tongue is named Elbereth, Queen of the Valar, maker of the stars" did indeed make the stars well before the Children of Ilúvatar came to be.

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Galin
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I think both types of answers (already in the thread) are correct in a sense, but there is also more context. With respect to the first quote in the first post of this thread (quote A I'll call it), this description comes after the Ainur have already been given a vision of the Music. They even see the coming of the Children...

quote:
"And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they percieved that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling..."
The vision was already unfolding, then in the very next paragraph we get more about the Children, and the first quote (quote A, the 'innumerable stars') is given. Furthermore it is later echoed that the Ainur had only seen a vision, as when the Valar enter Ea:

quote:
"But when the Valar entered into Ea they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in the vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. (...) So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured..."
And the Ainulindale -- of the constructed Silmarillion anyway -- even ends with an echo of quote A: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

The second quote (in the first post of this thread, Varda as maker of the stars) comes later, from Of The Beginning Of Days in the constructed Silmarilion. Just to note it, Christopher Tolkien altered the presentation of the Ainulindale for the 1977 Silmarillion, presenting some information from it later on, generally speaking.

I note too that in the earlier version of Ainulindale published in The Lost Road 'quote A' does not appear (unless I missed it somehow), and in this version Iluvatar gives reality to the music and shows the Valar, instead of showing them a vision.

So that's my answer anyway. You could say that it's due to an explanation that incorporates what happens later, that Eru chose a place 'in the midst of the innumerable stars' simply because the writer of Ainulindale already knows this, but I think we also have the element that even, within the Ainulindale itself, the reader knows that the vision was already unfolding at this point.

And...

Myths Transformed

It's also true that Tolkien changed his mind about Varda and the stars in any case. Generally speaking, Christopher Tolkien did not incorporate every later idea of his father's into the 1977 Silmarillion, and in Myths Transformed (Morgoth's Ring), concerning text IV, written by JRRT in the late 1950s, Christopher Tolkien explains:

quote:
"In the present text, on the other hand, appears the remarkable conception that the 'demiurgic' work of Varda was the making and disposition of certain 'principle' stars..."
Varda also made the star-imagines on the great dome above Valinor (a concept not taken up for Christopher Tolkien's constructed Silmarillion). Note also Myths Transformed text II, where JRRT writes...

quote:
"Varda, therefore, as one of the great Valar of Arda, cannot be said to have 'kindled' the stars as an original subcreative act -- not at least the stars in general."
And so, as already noted in the thread, in a 'late emendation' to the final text D of the Ainulindale, Varda makes the 'Great Stars' not just the stars.


Yet again...

... in the Ainulindale as it was once written by JRRT himself (version C for example, which includes the vision), Varda does make the stars (not just the great stars) and still 'quote A' is not in conflict with this.

[ 12-04-2014, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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