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Author Topic: Three Rings
Eol the Dark Elf
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Where did the three rings gain their power from?

Admittedly I don't really know much of the rings aside from what's in the Silm. but I'm unsure as to where the rings gained their power from, it seems that it could have been Sauron (because with the failing of the One Ring they too failed) but wouldn't this have made them evil, and also if they were truly untounched by Sauron how could he have divested his power into them.

Then perhaps it could have come from the wearers, as all those who wore them were great Elves or as in Gandalf's case a Maia, but did the Elven wearers have so much power, for example to maitain a realm such as Lorien in the midst of an arising evil?

I may well have over-simplified this, but as I said I don't know all that much about them, so any input would be welcome


From: Nan Elmoth | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tensen_Vil
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I believe that it was the same as the case of the one ring. The maker embued them with power.

As for why they were linked Annatar(Sauron) "helped" Celebimbor make the others and Celebrimbor made the three by himself, Sauron made th one by himself, through their makers they are linked. That's why Sauron Could control the ones he helped make but was nearly powerless against those he didn't touch.

------------------
"'Kill!' shouted Ford. He shouted it at his towel.
The towel lept up out of Harl's hands.
This was not because it had any motive force of its own, but because Harl was so startled at the idea that it might."
--Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams (1952-2001)


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Tuor
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Sauron told the Elves how to make the rings. With this knowledge he put his power into the ring in such a way as to connect his power to that of the rings. His power overcame the original power of the rings. Sauron redefined from where the rings got their power.

At least that is the way I understand it.

But you are right, if the rings had power put into them by elves, shouldn't the original elves' power be in them.

OK, new theory, the original elves who created the rings and gave them it's powers are dead. Since they are dead, their powers died also.

But wait a minute, Sauron was killed, yet the ring acted as an anchor, shouldn't the rings do the same thing for the creators of those rings whose power is in the rings?


Questions within questions, gotta love it.


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Eol the Dark Elf
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Sauron didn't actually die, (perhaps?)due to the fact that so much of his power was in the One Ring that it rooted him to Middle Earth, this should as you say be true in the case of the three rings, but if the elven smiths (should that be plural - i'll check in a while) hadn't individually put as much of their power (I'm starting to toss this word around carelessly now ) into their work as Sauron had, then perhaps this explains why it didn't anchor them to Middle Earth as it did to Sauron.

And another question, could elves actually put 'power' into their work, for example The Silmarilli; Feanor's skill produced the casing but the 'magic' came from the liquid (?) inside, and the indestructabilty, from Yavanna (or Varda's?) hallowing of them. So if the greatest of elven siths in history needed the aid of Yavanna(? -again!) and the Two Trees of legend to create his greatest works, could lesser smiths (was it Celembrimor who longed to rival Feanor?) create other works of perhaps somewhat less 'power' and in relative independance (i.e. helped only indirectly by a Maia namely Sauron)

I have now confused myself, gotta think this out....

This message has been edited by Eol the Dark Elf on 07-04-2001 at


From: Nan Elmoth | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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quote:
Hence the making of the Rings; for the Three Rings were precisely endowed with the power of preservation, not of birth. (letter #144)

We gather from this the nature of the power

How exactly the power was transfired is unclear but they were forged by the elven smiths alone and so it is evident that they held elven power. THis is by no means far-fetched but actually fits

quote:
And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.(letter 131)

quote:
hence the Elves (the representatives of sub-creation par excellence

since they have a lessend form of the Valinorean power.

This message has been edited by Fingolfin of the Noldor on 07-04-2001 at


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Tensen_Vil
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I hate to use a D&D reference but I always thought (Even before I started playing D&D) of it sort of like Enchanting an item... That's just me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it somewhere said that some Dwarven items were made by Dwarves and then "Enchanted" by Elven smiths who knew more of the "magic" than the dwarven smith. This, of course, might be coming from I.C.E. and MERP, so I don't know.

------------------
"'Kill!' shouted Ford. He shouted it at his towel.
The towel lept up out of Harl's hands.
This was not because it had any motive force of its own, but because Harl was so startled at the idea that it might."
--Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams (1952-2001)


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Eol the Dark Elf
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So above skill, the Eldar could actually transfer some 'power' into their work, like for example Yavanna but to a far lesser degree?
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Yea, I think so because tolkien described elven magic as a sort of sub-creation or lesser version of Valinorean skill.
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Roll of Honor Mandin
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Somehow, however, putting power from yourself into material things gives you extra power.
What was so great about the one ring? It makes you invisible, live forever (things that Sauron by himself could do)
It also gives you power over all the other rings (something Sauron could not do just of himself [?])

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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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The streching was a byproduct of the innate power which was completely foreign to a mortal and was not an extension but a streching and the Invisibility was a product of (I think) Sauron's inherent evil which soured his proverbial milk
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Tensen_Vil
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Okay, this just hit me... Looking at the way the world worked at that point and time what if it was sort of a "Whistle while you work" kind of thing? I mean, music seemed to play a big part in "magic" at the time. It was used to create the world after all. Luthien used song to put Morgoth to sleep. Her and Sauron also had sort of a duel of songs at Minas Tirith. The two trees were created by music...

I don't, it seems to me that it's actually a rather legitamit idea. A song while you forge... What do you think? Am I just too far out on a limb?

------------------
"'Kill!' shouted Ford. He shouted it at his towel.
The towel lept up out of Harl's hands.
This was not because it had any motive force of its own, but because Harl was so startled at the idea that it might."
--Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams (1952-2001)


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Tuor
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Elves did sing more beautifully than Man, so their magic would be stronger than Man's. If your theory is true, then dwarves must have very limited magic indeed.

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For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.


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Eol the Dark Elf
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Actually that is a good idea, that could be the missing transference process, I can think of one thing that may be a problem though: Sauron, obviously his singing was powerful (the Finrod thing) but beautiful ?(unless beauty was not the vital aspect - but then Luthien, Yavanna and the The Eldar in general). Hmmmm singing power into your craft...

And re: Tuor's point, is there actually any evidence of Dwarves singing (or not being able to do so well), I mean if they were determined not to share their language then perhaps the same would apply to their music?


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Eol the Dark Elf
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Okay thought of a point to challenge my previous point: Melkor in the Ainulindale not beautiful but from the most powerful Ainu, and it turned out to be VERY powerful
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Tensen_Vil
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I really don't think beauty has much to do with it as much physical and mental presence... Even the ugly can have beautiful voices.

As for the Dwarves... Thorin and company sang in the Hobbit, albeit in the common tongue(but that was to be expected seeing how they were in the company of non-dwarves). But I think it would just be a different sort of music, more inflection and gutteral than lofty and soaring. But it's still music... I think I'd almost compare it like Lorina McKennit(SIC) vs. The Chieftains. They both have tone and flare just different types, and they're both of the same roots: In the case of Middle-Earth the roots of creation...

------------------
"'Kill!' shouted Ford. He shouted it at his towel.
The towel lept up out of Harl's hands.
This was not because it had any motive force of its own, but because Harl was so startled at the idea that it might."
--Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

This message has been edited by Tensen_Vil on 07-08-2001 at


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Mortals did not possess that innate "stuff" which allowed for sub-creation or the elven (aweaker version of the Valinorean) "magic". Actually science isto men as sub-creation is to elves (I assume the same applies to dwarves) I believe I read this in TOlkien's letters.
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Roll of Honor Mandin
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I think, also to add to the singing bit, that Treebeard sang over his water and his home and set alight the lights of his house. He sang for something that had to do with something at his house, at least I think I remember that. lol
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Turin Turambar
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Singing as music, that is a really good way to look at it, when sauron sang, it didnt have to be beautiful, just powerful(i.e. german singing)while the elves had more beautiful voices, hinch the art, for theirs would be more beautiful
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Maglor
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Look who else sang and had power.
TOM BOMBADIL.

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Dingalen
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So german singing is not beautifull, eh? No Schubert fans out there? No appreciation of Mozart's "Zauberflöte"? And Bach is passé too, of course? Beethoven is not beautifull - only powerfull, right? And who likes waltz anyhow - so forget Johann Strauss...

Turin Turambar, to which german singing are you referring? Ramstein?

Just to give a hint to this twisted discussion: Tolkien liked the finnish language because of its musical quality. So does anyone of you know something about finnish mythology? The kalevala? Its main protagonist, Väinämöinen?

The explanation to the power of music in magic and mythology?

You can even find it in the bible:
"In the beginning was the word. And the word was of god." (John, 1.3)


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Tensen_Vil
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First off... Mozart was Austrian, not German, there is a difference. And Since when did Mozart and Shubert and Bach sing anyway? I don't remember many of their songs having lyrics, they were musical composers, not lyricists. I think what he meant was, have you ever heard Actual Germans sing say in a bar or at a festival? It doesn't have to be beautiful to be powerful and rousing.

Also, I can't ell if you're for or against music being the source of power. Your post is so convoluted that it stops making sense half way through.

p.s. The Only waltz I know of that has recognizable lyrics is "Take Me Out to the Ball Game".

------------------
"'Kill!' shouted Ford. He shouted it at his towel.
The towel lept up out of Harl's hands.
This was not because it had any motive force of its own, but because Harl was so startled at the idea that it might."
--Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams (1952-2001)


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Tuor
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OK, I think I have found the number one proof that some Germans can sing. Have you not heard of the Scorpions? Come now, are we being racists here or what?

This message has been edited by Tuor on 07-11-2001 at


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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I just saw "Amadeus" and Mozart did write at least one Opera in German and it was and is quite popular. Umm... do any of you guys know what I am talking about? It was the first opera in the movie and it had sailors and stuff.

This message has been edited by Fingolfin of the Noldor on 07-11-2001 at


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Tensen_Vil
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ANyway, this sin't the point. Whether German music is pretty or not. I prefer to use the analogy of Irish Folk(Chieftains) against Flowing Irish(Lorinna McKennet).

Anyway, so, have we decided that, without any proof against it, music is a good explanation?

------------------
"'Kill!' shouted Ford. He shouted it at his towel.
The towel lept up out of Harl's hands.
This was not because it had any motive force of its own, but because Harl was so startled at the idea that it might."
--Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams (1952-2001)


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Cernunnos
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You're talking about Die Entfuhrung aus der Serail ('The Escape from the Harem'), also called Il Seraglio, Fin.

Die Zauberflote ('The Magic Flute') was of course also written in German, but didn't quite count as an opera at the time - too 'popular'.

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Whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered.


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