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Author Topic: Concerning Elves - Reincarnation?
The wise fool
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My good friend the Laurenendorian tells me that when Elves die their spirits come back as other Elves. I didn't know this, but if this is true then how did the Elves procreate before any were slain. Also, this cannot be entirely true, as I am certain that Fëanor dwelt forever in Mandos. Anyone have any theories, or am I just wrong. (Btw, if TLRNDN has already posted this topic please will someone post and tell me where it is).
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Earendilyon
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I've read something like that too. But i don't quite remember what, nor where. Mb it's just another af JRRT's ideas, later discarded.
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The Laurenendôrian
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I shall obviously have to go on a hunt for the reference...

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What if there were no hypothetical situations?


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Nimruzir
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You'll find it in Morgoth's Ring, and it was abandoned as an idea of general practice.

There IS a provision, under direct intervention of Illuvatar ONLY (no recorded instances as specified by Professor Tolkien in the essay) - where this MAY occur, but all memory of the former life is gone due to the shock and grief that could not be overcome in Mandos during the reflection period.

In this sense, you may call it reincarnation as it is generally understood, rather than the re-incarnation (the reformation of the SAME body the Elf had prior to its destruction) by the Valar - for the re-introduction of the Elf spirit (that inhabited it) from Mandos.

These are seperate ideas of re-incarnation.

As stated; they are located in Volume 10.

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Sínome Endor maruvan ar hildinya tenn'ambar-metta


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Though I do not have Volume 10(or 8 or 9 or 11 or 12 for that matter ) I'd would like to throw my 2 cents in:


quote:

silm pg 38: and dying they are gathered to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor where they may in time return

Even if they are not "reborn" evidently they do eventually return

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quote:

Silm pg 227: There those that wait sit in the shadow of their thought

This portion is similar to various portions in HoME such as SoME pg 121:

quote:

To the halls of Mandos to wait [...] before they were recalled to free life in Valinor or were reborn

which indicates that though tolkien apparently axed the idea of elves being reborn they did in some way return to life.

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quote:

RotS pg 125 HMC ed.:
Years later [...] long after the piublication of the Lord of the Rings my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel [...] He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin [...] and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the sam; he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-Earth in the second Age


Tolkien made no indication that such a return to ME was a speacial occuracne and so I beleive though rebirth may have been removed return to life after a time was not.


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Nimruzir
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I'm sorry if I gave the impression they did not.

I'll add a point from History Volume 12 Peoples of Middle earth where the idea of Glorfindel returning to Middle earth WAS a special occurance (however it is disregarded as improbable as it establishes conditions that were unsatisfactory).

'When did Glorfindel return to Middle earth? This must probably have occurred before the end of the Second Age, and the 'Change of the World' and the Drowning of Numenor, after which no living embodied creature, 'humane' or of lesser kinds, could return from the Blessed Realm which had been removed from the Circles of the World. This was according to a general ordinance proceeding from Eru himself; and though, until the end of the Third Age, when Eru decreed that the dominion of Men must begin, Manwe could be supposed to have received the permission of Eru to make exception in his case, and to have devised some means for the transportation of Glorfindel to Middle earth, this is improbable and would make Glorfindel of greater power and importance than seems fitting.

We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned [to Middle earth] during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Numenor, and while the Numenoreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the PURPOSE of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them. It might, therefore, have been as early as Second Age 1200...'

Earlier in the essay, there is mention of Glorfindel remaining in Valinor by his own choice at first, which implies that restored Elves (in the First Age anyway) COULD have and possibly MAY have returned to Middle earth before the Change and the Decree of Eru and Manwe at the Downfall of Numenor.

The 'special occurance' was were Glorfindel would return AFTER the decree, where the other explanation is before it and of special significance and ultimately changes the import of the return, as that of 'councillor' to the Noldor lord(s) in their struggle against Sauron.

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Sínome Endor maruvan ar hildinya tenn'ambar-metta


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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So do you agree with me?? your response was rather vague.
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Nimruzir
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RE: So do you agree with me?? your response was rather vague.

On which point?
On the waiting in Mandos see my earlier response 'that could not be overcome in Mandos during the reflection period.'

On the Creation of new bodies see my earlier response '(the reformation of the SAME body the Elf had prior to its destruction) by the Valar - for the re-introduction of the Elf spirit (that inhabited it) from Mandos.' - stating the conditions and restating the Mandos point.

On the idea that 'Tolkien made no indication that such a return to ME was a speacial occuracne' see my response 'where the idea of Glorfindel returning to Middle earth WAS a special occurance (however it is disregarded as improbable as it establishes conditions that were unsatisfactory).' - by Professor Tolkien himself as stated in the quote.

If this was vague, then I again apologize.

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Sínome Endor maruvan ar hildinya tenn'ambar-metta


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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That elves do infact come back to life after their death after a period of time in Mandos. Refer to my previous post for support.
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The Laurenendôrian
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I found refernences under The music of the Ainur in The Book of Lost Tales 1. It said that elves are reborn in their children, "So that their number neither grows nor minishes", but seems to suggest that this idea was later dropped by saying that the other part of the idea there, that elves only die of injury or grief, was retained. It makes references to The Simarillion P. 42, but I have currently lent my copy of the silm to someone, and so cannot check.
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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NO!, that fact that the idea of them being reborn into their children was dropped by tolkien has already been established. The question now is whethere or not they returned after a period of time in Mandos. Refer to My post 3 posts ago (I believe) for support from the silmarillion and portions of HoMe which support the idea that they do return after a period of reflection though they are no longer reborn into their children.
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Nimruzir
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Re: That elves do infact come back to life after their death after a period of time in Mandos. Refer to my previous post for support.
And I thought I had already addressed this with:
'I'm sorry if I gave the impression they did not.'

Which was concerning a post previous to yours (my FIRST in this thread) where I had thought I had made it it clear that they DID return (and how this is done).

So in that sense; you would be agreeing with me, rather than vice versa.

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Sínome Endor maruvan ar hildinya tenn'ambar-metta


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Oh ok it is just that your statement:

"You'll find it in Morgoth's Ring, and it was abandoned as an idea of general practice."

and the fact you never directly stated that they do come back I assumed you thought they weren't reborn and didn't come back. I apologize if I misunderstood.

So we agree then that though they may not be reborn they do come back?


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Nimruzir
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LMAO

Ok.
Let's try this again.

They do not come back as children of other Elves; HOWEVER there IS a provision where this could in some future time happen. I believe this is actually regarding situations similar to Miriel and POSSIBLY Aegnor as two examples of an exception where this COULD happen -
due to the 'unnaturalness' of their existence should they return to life.

In what would be statistical practice it would probably be safe to say that in 99.9999999 whatever % of the cases, it is where the Valar rebuild their original bodies (fully mature - or assuming it was a child then at whatever stage of maturity they died at) for the Elven spirits released from Mandos to inhabit.

If this is also what you are saying (sans the Miriel and Aegnor issue of course) then yes; we agree.

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Sínome Endor maruvan ar hildinya tenn'ambar-metta


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