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Minas Tirith Forums » Silmarillion » Finarfin (Page 5)
Author Topic: Finarfin
Roll of Honor Círdan
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Had I more time I would boost this thread to the top with an eloquent statement but I don't. I will not SUBMIT!!!!!!

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In Autumn most of all do they come out, for Autumn is their season, fallen as they are upon the Autumn of their days. What shall the dreamers of the earth be like when their winter comes?


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Tuor
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Dingalen,

Some would say that Dingalen did it for both his gods and his people. The ones who followed him had a much better life. They did not have to look forward to the long defeat.


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Tuor
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Oops! I meant Finarfin, not Dingalen in the first sentence.
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Gothmog35
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Yes, I agree with that viewpoint. I think someone had to preserve that illustrious line. It definately wasn't on account of his valour or greatness in my opinion
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Roll of Honor Círdan
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Well then.
He had to 'preserve the line'. I suppose that justifies everything. Someone had to keep some Noldor in Valinor. Nevermind the fact that he left God-Knows-How-Many of his people to die on the Grinding Ice by Feanor, and Fingolfin and Fingon and Turgon and Finrod who had to keep up with Feanor and who had the honor to follow their natural leader. Certainly, the Noldor were not of any 'mind to take Feanor of king', but those of a mind to go would have forsook even Fingolfin in their hasty zeal. Again...
quote:

Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons and his household, and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him; if he would go with them


Finarfin deserves no credit for maintaining some kind of Noldorin legacy in Aman. He owed it to his people that were leaving to either band together with the other princes of the Noldor to condemn and stop the march, or, as he did not, to go with the people-his people- and guide and protect them from Feanor's insanity. To say that Finarfin is some kind of martyr for morality is ridiculous. Were that true, he'd never have gone. Instead he chose to go. He led whole families-women, children-to the march, then left them. Some, yes, went back with him. But more went, and very many did not live. This person deserves my compassion and admiration?


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In Autumn most of all do they come out, for Autumn is their season, fallen as they are upon the Autumn of their days. What shall the dreamers of the earth be like when their winter comes?

This message has been edited by Cirdan on 09-29-2001 at


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Roll of Honor Círdan
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I hereby bitchily claim victory over a very old thread.

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Tuor
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Why?

Just because Finarfin wasn't perfect on the get go? Just because it took seeing the fruits of the action first hand for him to repent?

I liken Finarfin to the Confessing Lutheran Pastors during the Third Reich. It may have taken some time to see the evil for what it was, but Finarfin eventually made the right choice. Finarfin did not rebel against Manwe and Eru.


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Roll of Honor Gandalf the White
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Congrats Cirdan
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Roll of Honor Círdan
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*exunt Círdan*
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Wowie, this is an old thread. Well, I've been looking for a good Finarfin discussion, as he is my favorite of Finwë's sons. []

For the most part I agree with Tuor. I respect Finarfin more for realizing his error and turning back rather than continuing on as Fingolfin did. At the Kinslaying, Finarfin realized how far Fëanor and his followers were truly willing to go to obtain the Silmarilli, and knew that he could not allow himself or his people to follow a similar path.

So he turned back. Regrettably his children did not, which I find to be very wrong since they allowed their loyalties to their cousins to override their loyalty to their own father. But Finarfin gave all of his followers the choice to return or continue, and some chose to go back with him. He did not simply abandon his people to die on the Helcaraxë or in Middle-earth; they went of their own free will, given the choice as any good leader should give.

I too think Fingolfin should have abandoned Fëanor after he himself was abandoned at Alqualondë. He certainly didn't deserve the pain Fingolfin and his people went through just to get to Middle-earth to help him.

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Thingol of Doriath
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Nice bump! []

quote:
I too think Fingolfin should have abandoned Fëanor after he himself was abandoned at Alqualondë. He certainly didn't deserve the pain Fingolfin and his people went through just to get to Middle-earth to help him.
Yes... but if the Noldor had remained splittered, they would have been quickly defeated by Morgoth. They had to put their feelings of injustice aside and band together for the greater good. I suppose that it was Fingon's rescue of Maedhros that healed the rift.
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Maybe, but I think Fëanor made it obvious he didn't need or want Fingolfin or Finarfin's help by abandoning them. After that, neither of his brothers owed any sort of allegiance or aid to Fëanor, and I think it's about the only saving grace of Fingolfin that his sense of loyalty was strong enough to keep following--his loyalty was just in the wrong place.
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Thingol of Doriath
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You are forgetting though... Fëanor was already dead when Fingolfin arrived. So Fingolfin wasn't showing any loyalty to Fëanor. His adversary was dead, only his sons remained... and they weren't as guilty of the ship burnings as their father. Even so, the two sides remained divided with hurt feelings until Fingon rescued Maedhros. It is stated that the Noldor in the son's of Fëanor's camp bitterly rued Fëanor's actions.
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Yeah, but did Fingolfin know Fëanor was dead before he even began the crossing? It took them a while to get over there, so he must have assumed that Fëanor would be there waiting when he arrived.

And for the record, Maedhros was a vast improvement over his father. It's a shame he and Maglor swore to that oath.

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Thingol of Doriath
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I was under the impression that they made the crossing, not in loyalty to Fëanor, but because they felt that they couldn't return to Aman and Fingolfin
quote:
was filled with bitterness... he desired now as never before to come by some way to Middle-earth, and meet Fëanor again.
Doesn't sound like loyalty drove Fingolfin to cross. In fact, it later states:
quote:
Small love for Fëanor or his sons had those that marched at last behind him.
But we digress... the thread is about the third brother! []
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Yes, yes... Let's see, what else to discuss about Finarfin?

I actually don't have any ideas. I'm afraid I'm not as familiar with the character as I'd like to be. []

Any suggestions?

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Thingol of Doriath
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Considering that Finarfin repented and returned to Valinor and sought the pardon of the Valinor...

What do you think the meeting of Finarfin and his daughter Galadriel was like, after she returned? She was the Noldo that rebelled the longest after all. That must have been some family reunion! I wonder if Finrod, Orodreth, Angrod and Aegnor had been reincarnated by that time...

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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I'm certain that Finrod had been, but I don't know about his brothers.

I think Finarfin would have been overwhelmed to finally see his daughter again, most likely disappointed and saddened that she had forsaken her home for so long, but after seeing my daughter for the first time in 7,000 years I'd be too happy to think of anything else.

But then, I'm not an Elf. Maybe they'd react differently in such situations. []

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Weee!

Great discussion, I just realized that this is like 2 years ago. Ouchie.

Even though the decisions of Finarfin and Fingolfin at Mandos' Meet are blatantly opposite. I do, somehow, approve both. People spoke about the Oath Fingolfin was loyal to, or his honour because of the words he spoke. But as I always seen it, it was all about the love Fingolfin had for Feanor, his brother, that he kept going. It is stated that he couldn't wait to meet him (helcaraxe), he always stayed calm, and forgiven him right away when Feanor just had menaced him with his sword, in front of Manwe.

Inconditional love. And that is why I feel he's much more worthy than Feanor himself. He might have been wrong not to turn back to Valinor, and repent. But he shown/used some great sides of himself to keep on (not hatred which pushed Feanor).

Finarfin did repent and acted wisely, where Fingolfin failed, he successed. Who of you would say no to an endless journey in Tirion...

But both are great, sons of Indis the vanya. And honestly, when I read these events, I felt 'just right'.

***

As to Galadriel comeback home, it must have been emotionful. 7000 yrs. []

[ 06-02-2003, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Laurelin Lintaluva ]

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Turgon of Gondolin
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Where does tolkien ever say that feanor went against eru when he made his oath?

He went against the valar, but eru never told feanor not to try to take back HIS silmarils.

I find finarfin boring, to be honest he annoys me because he did bugger all.

Its just like a scenario where there is a school bully, the teacher tells you to ignore the bully then hell stop. Only he doesnt stp, the bullying keeps gettng worse and worse and the teacher isnt doing anything about it. Finarfin would be the one who ignores it and does as the teacher(s) said, but nothing gets solved.

Feanor would be the one who tries to deal pure natural justice t the bully, who realises that the 'ignore' theory isnt practical, something must be done so he sets about to beat up the bully because that will make him stop and it will be adequate punishment.

It seems to me like some people on this board will agree in this scenario that one must ignore the bully, because the teacher has told them to. (a slightly pacifist view). Likewise there wil be others that would rather that natural justice took care of the bully and punished him (adequate fitting punishment). Im guessing that those who agree with the ignore part will agree with finarfin and those who agree with the action part will agree more with feanor's stance (granted not things like the slaying at alqualonde).

Slightly different parrarel to the silmarilion but you can see the vague similarities.

Again im sure some will say 'but it is not up to you to deal punishment to others'. Might be true, but lets be practical, if we are too politically correct then nothing ever gets done.

Was the politically correct finarfin the 'greatest of the 3 brothers? or was he the weak minded pacifist? its hard to say, id tend to say he was the more weak minded of the 3, thats why i dont like him particularly, but i respect his decission to turn back (afterall it shows a strong mind to apologise) id say it takes a stronger mind to push forward and deal with a situation.

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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It took a great deal of personal courage and humility to turn back and return to the Valar. Finarfin was originally going to go with his brothers, but he realized that going against the Valar was not right, and I also think he turned back because he could no longer support those who murdered his wife's kin like they did.

I am definitely not a pacifist and yet I still think Finarfin is a better man than his brothers, certainly wiser and more noble, for turning back. It was not the Noldor's place to deal with Morgoth, and he eventually understood that.

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Viscount Værtalion
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oh eah, and the Vanyarin attitude from his mother's side was better used by him than Fingolfin
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Turgon of Gondolin
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What was right and wrong? we do not know that the valar were right, we only know that melkor was wrong because he went against eru. Feanor went against the valar, not against eru, therefore you can not class him as wrong. Eru did not tell feanor not to try to retrieve his silmarils and not to kill melkor, only the valar did.

I think this is a common misconception. indeed feanor was aware of eru as he says to manwe's messenger 'maybe you underestimate the fire that illuvator has put within me' (something along those lines). I am sure had illuvator told feanor not to go in search for melkor then feanor would have abided by his masters rule.

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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quote:
I am sure had illuvator told feanor not to go in search for melkor then feanor would have abided by his masters rule.
To be honest, I doubt even Eru could have convinced Fëanor to not go after Morgoth.

But then again, why would he try to? That was all part of his plan. []

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GLAMDRING The Foe Hammer
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Turgon,

You are not taking into account the concept of "authority". Eru gave Manwe "authority" to rule over Arda which means that whatever Manwe said, he said as representing Eru. So if Feanor went against Manwe's wishes then he went against Eru's as well.

Feanor made choices, some were right and some were wrong (based on the accepted morality of his world). Because Eru/God knows that something will happen does not mean that it is His will that it does happen. It also doesn't mean that He can't use those wrong choices for His own purposes and in the end make it something that was good to have been.

Here are some examples of Feanor's "wrong" choices:

1. Choosing to steal the Teleri's ships after they told him he couldn't have them was wrong, plain and simple, it was wrong.

2. Attacking and slaying the Teleri when they tried to defend their ships was way wrong.

3. Burning the ships and stranding the rest of the Noldor in Aman was wrong.

4. Forcing his sons to take an oath that could never be fullfilled and would force them to follow the wrong path was wrong.

There is no real justification for any of these choices that Feanor made. They were based on his own pride and ego and were completely selfish. Plain and simple they were wrong.

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