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Minas Tirith Forums » Silmarillion » Finarfin (Page 3)
Author Topic: Finarfin
Tinelwen
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That's just what I was looking for. Well, it sounds to me like Feanor didn't exactly behave in a way deserving of such an oath. His actions in the kinslaying and his abandonment of Fingolfin seem enough to void it.
BTW, Tuor, I don't think there was anything in all of Arda that could've justified anyone's actions in the kinslaying.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe

This message has been edited by Tinelwen on 04-17-2001 at


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Galdor of the Tree
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Tour the at the Kin-Slaying Fingolfin did not fully understand what was happening. He came there near the end and believed that the Teleri were sent by Manwe to stop them. Also ,if he did understand what was going on and if what he said may be counted as an oath, he would be forced to follow Feanor. Wether it was just noone can judge but he would have to do it.
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Tuor
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Why would he have to do it? That's what I don't get, why must one continue in a course that is obviously so wrong? Once some words are uttered they forever rule your life? Some may think it noble for the sons of Feanor to continue their quest for pride or greed or whatever it was that was their desire for the silmarils. I think it was nothing more than stupidity. Fighting Morgoth is one thing, killing Dior is quite another. There is no honor in killing other Elves over jewels, no matter how pretty and indestructable they are.

As for Fingolfin, I know Fingy you disagree, there is no excuse in validating Feanor's crusade for his Jewels and his vengence.


quote:

Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his enemy.....But they obeyed the judgement of Manwe, for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

The rebellious Noldor would not admit their error and beg for forgiveness. They were too proud to repent. I say the rebellious Noldor were a shame, not heroes.

This message has been edited by Tuor on 04-17-2001 at


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Galdor of the Tree
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You have to hold true to your oathes.
You just do.

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Tuor
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So for the sake of an oath, you follow someone straight to hell. Makes alot of sense to me.
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Lady of Lorien
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If an oath is wrong, not just stupid or misplaced, but wrong, I don't believe a person is bound by it. Better to break the oath than to do worse things by following through on the oath.

That is my belief.


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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A man who can't keep his word is a man without honor. The only one who could absolve one of such an oath would be either that on which the oath was made or to whom it was made. Fingolfin kept his oath despite the fact he knew he would probably die becuase of it and you guys think because of that he was some how evil incarnit?? Sure he could of made all kinds of excuses to abandon Feanor but he didn't, not because of pride because of honor.


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Tuor
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Not evil, just wrong. What is more important honor or the people you lead. I say your followers. As I said before he validated Feanor by following him. I know it would have cost him his honor, but when it comes down to it what's more impotant.

Honor or the lives of entrusted to your leadership?


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Earendilyon
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Following Feanor also, and even more!, damaged his honour. By following, he and his people were part of the Kinslaying and every other evil deed Feanor and his sons did.

Feanor left Fingolfin, so their union was null and void: the oath had already been broken by Feanor. Even if Fingolfin was bound by his oath to participate in the Kinslaying, he certainly now was free to return. That he didn't, was foolish and not worthy to be called good leadership! For the best of his people he should have returned. That some of his people nevertheless would follow Feanor, would be their choice. Those wouldn't be Fingolfin's responsibility anymore. Had Fingolfin said they would return, I think most, if not all, of his people would've followed him!


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Tinelwen
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Well said, Earendilyon. I agree.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Dingalen
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But you argue from the point of view of our liberal & rationalized age. Of course today, you would say that standing to your word even if it meant war, famine, murder and crimes against the established authority would be irresponsible and criminal.

Because we are adhering to such ideals as the Human Rights: The principle of personal responsibility to a codex of rational, universal ethics & laws, which supercede national, tribal or religious legislation.

But Fingolfin is living up to other ideals:
His authority is apparently not based on a system of laws, but of his people's trust in and commitment to him (i.e. his personality, his personal capabilities and his noble descent). I.e. a primitive (or idealized) feudal system. In such a system the faith in a leader's word & his honor is vital for its functioning. In such a system the breach of an oath is a more despicable crime, than any that would follow up from it - because the oath already constitutes not a 'promise' but a commitment - it is a contract!

In the eddas the results of a man's deeds and oaths is called "his fate" - even if he has acted or sworn foolish, he is stuck to it - he has doomed himself.

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As silent as greenwood the great.


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Galdor of the Tree
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But most of Fingolfin's people would have gone without them and taken one of his sons as their leader.
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Tinelwen
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How do you know that?

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Galdor of the Tree
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How many people left because Finarfin did? Not even his sons.
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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RE: Feanor left Fingolfin, so their union was null and void: the oath had already been broken by Feanor.

Earendilyon, how would that make his oath null and void, feanor never said: I swear not to hinder you in the fulfillment of this oath, Fingolfin's oath was not reliant on an oath of feanor so there is no way feanor could have broken the oath. The only possible action of feanor which would make the oath null and void would be if he specifically absolved Fingolfin of said oath.


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Earendilyon
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Fingolfin,
part of the oath was 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us.' Feanor knew also that Fingolfin would follow him, where-ever he led the way. Feanor was, in a sense, Fingolfin's leader. He, however, chose his own road, and left Fingolfin. Therefore, Fingolfin's oath was by all laws, human as well divine, null and void.

This message has been edited by Earendilyon on 04-18-2001 at


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Feanor didn't take another road he just made it harder for Fingolfin to follow him he didn't stop leading him down the road he just forced Fingolfin to take an alternate route.
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Tinelwen
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Fingy, Feanor ABANDONED Fingolfin. He didn't simply make things a tad harder for Fingolfin, he downright ditched him. I would say that such an act would make the oath void.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Galdor of the Tree
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Fingolfin didn't say I will follow you unless you abandon me he said I will follow you. He took an oath. You must keep your oaths. Enough said.
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Tinelwen
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By his actions, Feanor refused Fingolfin's oath. It seems to me that if someone refuses help then whoever has offered to help is not obliged to go out of their way to make them accept.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Tuor
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Hey Tinelwin, wasn't this thread supposed to be about Finarfin?

Just thought I'd throw my dos pesos in, Finarfin served his people better than Fingolfin.


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Tinelwen
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Yes, yes, so it was....'once upon a time.'
And I agree, Finarfin did make much better decisions for his people.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Perhaps, but he wasn't nolbler and he didn't love his people more then Fingolfin.
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Galdor of the Tree
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He may have made better descions for his people but most didn't like them so they just forgot about him.
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Yea, you're right a king doesn't control the angry mob the angry mob controls him.
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