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Minas Tirith Forums » Silmarillion » Finarfin (Page 2)
Author Topic: Finarfin
Andrew the Grey
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 426
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Gotcha He just decided as Fingy said to travel with his own people, through the grinding ice, talk about devotion...

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--- Andrew ---
--Wielder of the flame of Anor--
"Many are the strange chances of the world, and helps oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter." -Mithrandir-


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Earendilyon
Guard of the Citadel
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Tuor,
indeed knew Fingolfin that what his people wanted was wrong. However, they would have done it anyway, so he better lead them than let them go by theirselves! Without him their chances of survival would've been greatly reduced.
True leaders know what is best for the group they're leading. The best of the group is most important for a true leader, he serves the well-being of the group. Hence, he serves the group.
Bad leaders lead their group to what they think is best. Which is mostly, what is best for themselves, not best for the group. See Feanor, he is lead by his own desires and pride. He leads his people on ground of that, and plunges them all into doom!

This message has been edited by Earendilyon on 04-14-2001 at


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Citizen # 156

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Yea, Fingolfin at the very least left to help keep feanor in check.
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Tuor
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They were doomed to defeat without him or with him. Face it, he gave into peer presure and became a follower. His people would have been much better off in Valinor.

Given that he went, he made a very good showing of himself in the War Against Morgoth.


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Fingolfin knew the quest was doomed to failure but he accompanied them because he didn't want to abandon them to die.
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Tinelwen
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Once upon a time, wasn't this thread about Finarfin, or am I mistaken?
Hmmm...maybe the name of it: Finarfin, gives it away, but I don't know.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Tuor
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Yes Tinelwin, but if you'll look at the 1st page, you'll see that I made the mistake of saying that Finarfin was the best Noldor leader and some took offense.
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Tinelwen
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Yes...so I see. Well, he was certainly the one with the most sense, I must say.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Fingolfin knew the dangers just a much as finarfin and probably would have stayed behind if he didn't truely love his people.

This message has been edited by Fingolfin of the Noldor on 04-15-2001 at


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Tinelwen
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Fingy, are you trying to say that Finarfin didn't love his people?
I'm not going to say that Fingolfin didn't love his people, I just think that Finarfin showed much more wisdom in leading his back to Valinor. If I were Fingolfin, I would have tried to get my people to go back to Valinor, whether or not it meant judgement by Manwe, after Feanor took the ships and burned them. Why would I want to go and put the lives of my people at risk for some jerk that had done nothing more than let me down?

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe

This message has been edited by Tinelwen on 04-15-2001 at


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Galdor of the Tree
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Finarfin and Fingolfin had very different personalities.
Finarfin was one to hold back. One not to jump into something he wasn't sure about.
Fingolfin was not as nearly as rash as Feanor. He knew that some things were usless and impossible but he did them anyway to try to help his people out.

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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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I said nothing of the kind, of course Finarfin loved his people. Not all(if any) would have accompanied Fingolfin back to valinor and Fingolfin just didn't want to ababdon any of his people.
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Tinelwen
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I've just re-read parts of 'The Flight of the Noldor,' and it has lessened my opinion of Fingolfin somewhat.
quote:

But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Feanor...and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Tuna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still...


That leads me to believe that Fingolfin was acting somewhat in subserviance to Feanor, and that he was too proud to go back and face the judgement of Manwe. I get the feeling that if Fingolfin had decided to turn back, his people would have gone with him and been better off in the end.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe

This message has been edited by Tinelwen on 04-16-2001 at


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Tuor
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Citizen # 156

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Fingolfin went because most of his people would not have forsken the march (notice only some of Finarfin's people went back) and so he would not forsake his people.

Fingolfin's people went because of Feanor-->Fingolfin went because of his people-->Farafin's sons went because of Fingolfin

Fingolfin would not abandone his people and that's that, sure it might not have been the smartest thing to do but it was the noblest thing to do.


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Tinelwen
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Ok...well I don't really see your reasoning in that Fingolfin was going because of the people. Generally, people rally behind a strong leader, not the other way around. It is true that not all of Finarfin's people turned back (i.e. his sons), but many of them did. If Fingolfin had decided to return to Valinor, I am sure many of his people would have gone with him. The reason they went on was because their leader did.
Also, I don't think that Fingolfin's actions were the noblest. Would it not be nobler of him to accept his wrongdoing and return for judgement? I think it would be.

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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Feanor was the strong leader they were following, and despite the fact that many joined Finarfin and many more may have followed Fingolfin, many isn't most.
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Galdor of the Tree
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First if you want to make your opion of good ol FIngy higher reread the rest of Silm or at least from that part to his death.

Second if he was acting subserviant to Feanor he had his reasons

1 Feanor by right should take command being the eldest of the sons of Finwe
2 In front of Manwe Fingolfin said to Feanor something to the extent that he will follow him whereever he goes.


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Tinelwen
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Yes, Fingolfin did some extraordinary things in Beleriand, and I do think him noble in that respect. And I know about his oath to Feanor; however, I would think that such an oath would be null and void after Feanor abandoned Fingolfin, and, in essence, left him to fend for himself.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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An oath is an oath is an oath.
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Eol the Dark Elf
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Sorry I can't remember, but did he make this oath to anthything in particular?

LIke the oath of Feanor and his sons to 'have everlasting darkness' if they failed.


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Galdor of the Tree
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Oaths will follow you to your end it is said.
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Tinelwen
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I was trying to find that spot where Fingolfin makes the oath, but I couldn't. Could someone either give me a page number or cite it here?

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Galdor of the Tree
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Fingolfin says he will follow Feanor in umm The Theft of Melko I think. It was at that festival.
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Tuor
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Pg. 75 Silm. 2nd ed.
quote:

Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us.'

My question is, does an oath justify participating in the kinslaying? How far does, "I was just following orders" go?

This message has been edited by Tuor on 04-17-2001 at


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