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Minas Tirith Forums » Silmarillion » Regarding Beren and Luthien - Did Luthein just bail out Beren? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Regarding Beren and Luthien - Did Luthein just bail out Beren?
Tinelwen
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I was just wondering if anybody out there feels the same way as I do about Beren. I mean he must have been a brave enough guy, but he just seems like everyone else always has to bail him out when he's in trouble. Take for instance the first time he heads for Angband with Finrod. When they are captured by Sauron, Finrod saves Beren because of his oath, but he dies in the process. After that, Lúthien has to go and get him out of prison there. Then when they finally go to Angband, Lúthien goes out there and dances and sings for Morgoth while Beren just hides under his chair. And then last but certainly not least, when Beren is actually killed by Carcharoth, it is Lúthien who gives up her life to go to Mandos and get him, and lo and behold...she saves him even from death the first time. Now it seems to me that such a great guy as Beren would be able to get himself out of his own fixes without someone else bailing him out. Does anyone else have an opinion?
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Warg
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There are many more such cases. I like to think of Beren as almost Tolkiens own version of Han Solo. He is certainly a brave fello. He just doesnt think to much before he runs into something. Although he does have concern for his well being and that of others, he is still not as strong as he would like to think and it costs him much.

There is a difference between streingth and bravado. Being brave to me just means doing what you have to do with out thought of consequences, which almost fits the image that i got of Beren.

This is just my opinion and is not to be reguarded as an expert interpritation.

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Hwæt we Gar-Dena in gear-dagum
peod-cyninga prym gefrunon,
hu oa æpelingas ellen fremedon.


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Tinelwen
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I would have to say that you hit the nail on the head with what you said on strength and bravery, Warg. Beren definately does rush into things without much thought, which can definately put a damper on things in the long-run....that's the whole reason why others were always having to bail him out of those nasty situations.
Apparently he lacks problem solving skills as well.........

This message has been edited by Tinelwen on 02-27-2001 at


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Actually Tokien's writings helped to inspired the creation of STAR WARS not the other way around, so saying HAn Solo is a variation of Beren would be more appropriate then saying Beren is a variation of Han Solo.

This message has been edited by Fingolfin of the Noldor on 02-27-2001 at


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Miturian
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I don't agree.
Beren IS helped a little too much, but think about it; the nasty situations that Beren is to be helped out of is so nasty that we wouldn't expect any Edain or other human being to be able to handle them. And it isn't quite unknown figures who is to save his ass. It's some who's already pretty legendary. F.eks the song-spell Luthien casts on Morgoth is kind'a unique.
I think that even his most brainless actions is pretty overmatched by the oath of "the family of Feanor".


But I agree with Fingolfin in the "Starwars-matter".

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If you haven't been at the buttom,
and climbed all the way op,
then you don't know what you're standing on.


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Warg
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You know what i ment. You dont think me so slow so as to think that Star Wars came out before LOTR. I sincerely hope not.

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Hwæt we Gar-Dena in gear-dagum
peod-cyninga prym gefrunon,
hu oa æpelingas ellen fremedon.


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Galdor of the Tree
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i have the same toughts on turin that you have on beren. seems to me he did more harm than good i balme the loss on nargothrond on him and him alone just by being rash and i'm sure most people would agree that the death of Beleg just horrible terible wrong atrocious ick sorry for not making my own thread and stuff but it seemed your discussion on beren seemed like my thoughts on turin really though they should't have killed beleg not like that
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Tinelwen
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I agree with you, mog about Túrin. He certainly did do some things in bad judgement and and some things mistakenly....but keep in mind that he was cursed by Morgoth. He was more or less doomed to do the things he did...he had little control over those situations, so you can hardly blame him. It was all due to the will of Morgoth more or less.
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Galdor of the Tree
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i know but he still annoys me I MEAN BELEG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sob sob why did he have to die sob sob


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HT
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I must agree with Miturian. Did Beren son of Barahir not slaughter so many orcs that Morgoth put a price on his head almost equal to that of Finrod Felagund? Indeed he did. Diminishing his efforts for not being able to fight Sauron and Morgoth personally is just silly. Besides, the Silmarillion has a bias against the Edain. Seriously! How many positive human role models are there? Let's see, Beren's one, Hurin and Turin don't really count, Earendil isn't quite human anyway...

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Vala he is, thou saist? Get thee gone, thou gore-crow of Mandos! Etc.


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Tinelwen
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Again, mog, I agree about Beleg...there is no worse way to be killed than by your best friend by accident...but that was just one of the events that played into Morgoth's curse on the family of Húrin. I always feel bad enough to cry when I read that story...it's like that feeling when you watch a movie a ton of times, but every time you hope that it ends differently.

And then about Beren..yes he did do many valient and impressive things, but when it came down to it he was very heedless. He just rushed into everything without thinking about the reprecussions and the fact that he was dealing with matters far beyond his or most other people's powers. I mean...he just goes skipping up to the doors of Angband without thinking about what real danger he is in, or what danger he could be putting others in. That's generally what causes him problems in the end.
And I think the Silmarillion is in some ways biased against the Edain, but only to a certain extent...I mean, did Beren not get the girl? Tuor as well? After the first age, though, things did not go well for the Eldar in Middle Earth...I think they deserved to get the spotlight in the Silmarillion.


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Galdor of the Tree
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i know it wasn't his fault but i don't see how some think that he was the coolest character in the book
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Aerendir
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The "bias" against the Edain I think is being mis percieved. The bias is really against Men in general. I mean, all the elves that turn bad are dark elves to begin with ( Eol for ex.) But how many times does Tolkien say that alliances, battles, whatever, would have succeeded but for the treachery of men? The Edain are the descendants od Numenor, right? And how many chapters are devoted to the glory of Numenor? Very few. "And the became great... or some such thing, and then the Akalabeth tells of the fall of Numenor. It's a very sad portrayal of men as a race, but it's true isn't it......
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Tinelwen
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Right...I meant men in general...not just the Edain.
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radioactiverob
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I must firstly say that I agree in general with what has been written here, but only from a certain (and short term) point of view.

It seems to me that it has been forgotten that a lot of events that happened in Middle-Earth were still construed in some way by the Valar, and although such things are not directly mentioned by Tolkien during the story, there are hints at that with comments from Melian such as (and I can't remember exactly here as I am overseas and haven't looked at the Silmarillion for a couple of years) when she tells Thingol that one will come through the Girdle of Melian that she cannot keep out as he will be guided by fate.

This also ties in with the such things as his coming into inheritance of the Ring of Barahir for example. I think Tolkien's thought about this is very deep and subtle if you look at all the historical events and how things come to pass.

Was it that the Valar had deemed that only when someone seeks them out with a Silmaril that they would help the races of Middle-Earth? If so then all of Beren's adventures and actions could be partly accounted for by purposes of others. And even so, is it not also romantic (even though it causes pain) for someone to do attempt any task in order to win the hand of the person he loves.

He obviously wasn't so useless if he single-handedly managed to negotiate the Mountains of Terror. Look how dangerous Shelob was in Lord of the Rings. Who of the characters in that book could have stood up to her, let alone a mountain range infested with similar creatures?

And if everything worked out nicely in Tolkien's histories then we probably wouldn't all be so captivated by them (such as Beleg's death which I also lamented a lot).

Regardless, I too never thought of Beren as a particularly capable person when first reading the story, but as someone previously mentioned, who could have done any of things alone.


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Tinelwen
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Oh great......not that picture again.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe


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Earendilyon
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Hey, it wasn't me!
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Tinelwen
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Noooo.....please PLEASE don't bring up censoring!

It just makes me angry to think that someone would portray Luthien like that. I reiterate: she looks like a harlot.

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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe." -Goethe

This message has been edited by Tinelwen on 05-15-2001 at


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Natasha
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Tell me about it lol
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Bungo
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I totally agree. Of all the illustrations of Tolkien's world I have ever seen, this is the only one that makes me cringe every time I see it. No one has ever missed the mark wider than this! The intangable beauty that captivated Beren was totally different from the flagrant, though well-drawn, quality foisted on us in this painting.

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Measure thy life by loss and not by gain
not by the wine drunk but by the wine poured forth
For love's strength standeth in love's sacrifice
And they who suffer most have most to give

This message has been edited by Bungo on 05-26-2001 at


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Celedaen
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Sheesh! What an awful pic!!!
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Tinelwen
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Amen Bungo! Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Help! Help! I'm being repressed!


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Snöwdog
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 -

Hmmm.... and Joe Friday turns to Streback and says,

"You're right Streback, this place does have good coffee."

(from the movie Dragnet)

[ 03-24-2006, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Snöwdog ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
- Bilbo Baggins

"These Lord of the Rings movies must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence they came."

Middle Earth Angling Guide

Avatar: Shadow Ranger
Artwork by Jonathon Earl Bowser

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Arvedui
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Ok enough with the showgirl Luthien..
Here is a better one!


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Celedaen
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Hey, that's a good pic, where did you get it? It's the closest I've seen so far to what I think Luthien looks like.
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Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Silmarillion » Regarding Beren and Luthien - Did Luthein just bail out Beren? (Page 1)
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