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Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Hobbit » Purist Rage - Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities! (Page 7)
Author Topic: Purist Rage - Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities!
Snöwdog
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(the previous post brought to you by DCUEI, PJ fangirl apologist who can't stand reading anything that speaks contrary to PJ's fan-fic vision nd has to tell people in the Purist Rage thread to "lighten up" [] )

The Thorin & co wheelbarrow ride on molten gold was one of the things that makes the movie utter rubbish. The fact they melted that much gold in the first place was another. Pretty much the whole ending action sequence was crap....

From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thingol of Doriath
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Ahem. []

I would like to preface this post by saying that, while I used to be an avid poster on this site, I never really entered the whole "has PJ ruined Tolkien?" debate (I prefered to discuss the books solely and leave the movies alone). This is mainly due to the fact that I am smart enough to take a step back and give PJ some cinematic leaway. Not that I always agree with them. I think of them as a necessary evil. The story has to be changed a bit to become watchable on the big screen... scenes/characters have to be dropped and added for a variety of reasons. Demographics have to be pandered to! Making movies is, after all, a money-making business (a try not to lose money business at the very least). As long as PJ stuck as close as possible to the spirit of Tolkien, I would keep my purist outrage confined to just wildly rolling my eyes at breaches in taste/story (dwarf throwing, skate-boarding elves, etc;). But now...

I just watched the DVD of the last Hobbit installment. I can still give PJ some of the leaway I mentioned above. I undertsand the addition of female characters as the book is almost completely devoid of them (demographics). I understand making the barrels open... closed barrels are suspensful in a book, hard to make it so in a movie. I understand making certain Dwarves "dreamy" and bringing back Legolas (those demographics again). I understand adding a whole Gandalf-goes-to-Dol-Guldur storyline (Ian McKellan is after all the big name in the movie and you can't have him missing from half of it). I understand keeping one main antagonist throughout the movie (the Pale Orc). Easier to follow for the mass audience who haven't read the book. Do I like these changes or agree with them, considering my love of the book? No! I just understand his motives from a cinema vs literature point of view.

That all being said, this movie pissed me off more than the others for several reasons. Firstly, he changed too much of the story for no discernable reason and added elements that are so anti-Tolkien they make my head spin as much as Tolkien must be doing in his grave.
A budding Elf-Dwarf romance? Why, when PJ knows that is about as verboten as you can get in the Tolkien fantasy world? Sure, Gimli had a crush on Galadriel in the book... but it was hardly mutual, romantic or remotely sexual. Like I mentioned, I understand PJ adding female characters, dreamy Dwarves and romance for the sake of demographics, but at least keep it based on Tolkien! For Eru's sake, he brought in Legolas to the story. Hint at a Legolas-Galion-Tauriel love triangle to keep the fan girls happy.
There are some fantastic special effects and action scenes in the movie... but too much and too many that were unnecessary. Let the story build, let it take a breath! Some great scenes in the book were cut and the only reason that I could see for this is that they were non-action and PJ wanted to make more room for Ninja Elf fighting. The scenes would of worked cinematically (maybe with some slight changes) and would have been nice breaks between the action scenes.
Some scenes were changed from dramatic to action, which wasn't necessary... like Bilbo's conversation with Smaug. And other action scenes were added in the place of action scenes already in the book... like Smaug chasing the Dwarves in the forges instead of flying around Erebor, licking it with flames while the Dwarves cowered. I got the distinct feeling this was done so that PJ could get the chance to use a molten-gold-special-effects that he had seen somewhere else. Typical Peter "I add special effects because I can, not because they are needed" Jackson!
The barrel chasing scene was way too long and having Orcs in Laketown was unnecessary as well. He could have easily kept the Orcs in the storyline and having the Pale Orc as a major character (two things I understand) by cutting away every once and awhile to the Orcs mustering in the mountains and swearing revenge for the murder of the Great Goblin. I'm still scratching my head why PJ changed Bard to a smuggler character. Or why he shortened and changed Beorn's chapter so much. Might as well of deleted it completely to make room for even more Ninja Elves. Meh.
The book is an adventure with a moral. We get to see Bilbo's charcter change steadily through the story. Baggins vs Took. In PJ's action-packed special effects bonanza, Bilbo changes almost 180 from when he gets the Ring. He never dreams back to his multiple meal filled life in his comfy Hobbit hole. The moral is missing...

Points I will give PJ? Some great casting... especially Stephen Fry as the Master of Laketown and Benedict Cumberbatch as the voice of Smaug. []

*rant over* []

[ 04-14-2014, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Thingol of Doriath ]

From: Sverige! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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quote:
(the previous post brought to you by DCUEI, PJ fangirl apologist who can't stand reading anything that speaks contrary to PJ's fan-fic vision nd has to tell people in the Purist Rage thread to "lighten up" [] )
I wasn't talking about PJ but films in general, unless there are space battles and/or lava in TH (which there aren't). [] Do learn to read. []

I agree with Daddy entirely on the + points for casting and some of the changes being a bit [] .

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Snöwdog
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Yes DCUEI, learn to read yourself:
quote:
If anyone posts anything about how we should just enjoy the films for what they are, the post will be deleted. This isn't about swallowing these films and smiling. It isn't about a fair, balanced, and level-headed assessment of films as a whole. It's about venting your rage, pure and simple. I know I am not alone.
... and all this sounds like it should be in the praise the films thread []

[ 04-13-2014, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Snöwdog ]

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Roll of Honor Athene
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I loathed the first instalment and shall not be watching the second. []

Why yes, we DID need a forty-minute scene of dwarves running out of the Orc stronghold! No, it wasn't in the book, and makes no feckin' sense in the context of Bilbo the POV, but that's OK! And despite being mostly CGI, it nevertheless contained the EXACT SAME SEQUENCE of bits falling off walls three times, each exquisitely and separately designed by a digital renderer who must have committed seppuku out of sheer despair at the end of it, but that's OK too! Got to get those actions scenes in, am I right, even if we have to shoehorn them in so grotesquely that they completely destroy any sense of plot pacing! How will the Transformers-watching knuckle draggers know they are getting good value for money if nothing blows up?
[] [] [] [] []

PJ COME AT ME BRO I WILL FIGHT YOU

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Inc'
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Do you mean the first trilogy or the first Hobbit movie ?

Anyway, yeah don't watch the second Hobbit movie, it is MUCH worse than the first. (And I didn't like the first either). []

As far as I'm concerned, even if there weren't any Hobbit book at all, the movie would still be a load of pïss. Bad acting, bad action scenes, bad special effects (that water and that molten gold !), inconsistent writing and the same things happen over and over again. That, weirdly enough, doesn't make a good film.

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Roll of Honor Athene
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First Hobbit, I didn't find (quite) as much to object to in the LotR trilogy. Except the horse-snogging scene, and you know my views on THAT. I mean, WHAT.
[]

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Inc'
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Oh yeah my mind keeps erasing that part. []

What I think is ultimate proof of the sückiness* of that movie is that (apart from Ian McKellen) in my opinion the most believably* played character was Tauriel by Evangeline Lily. Meaning, the one character that doesn't even exist or make sense in the first place. []

*This post was sponsored by the Organization for the Promotion of Bad Neologisms.

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Madomir
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quote:
The book is an adventure with a moral. We get to see Bilbo's charcter change steadily through the story. Baggins vs Took. In PJ's action-packed special effects bonanza, Bilbo changes almost 180 from when he gets the Ring. He never dreams back to his multiple meal filled life in his comfy Hobbit hole. The moral is missing...
Despite Martin Freeman's acting being a bright spot in the Hobbit (to me at least), the way the character of Bilbo was written has been a sore point from the start. The character arc Thingy refers to is non existent, instead we get a spike. In the book Bilbo grows and earns the respect of the dwarves subtly, little by little, one adventure at a time. In Hobbit 1 this growth was accomplished in 1 scene, and the worst part, it was a "made for the movie" PJ scene to boot, which means of course that it didn't need to be there. When Thorin actually fought Azog at the end of the movie and it was Bilbo that ran to his aid as all the other dwarves just watched, too afraid to lift a finger to help (even big bad biker dwarf Dwalin), I had to bite my tongue to keep from screaming. Then when Bilbo, who for all intents and purposes had never handled a sword in anger before is somehow successful in defending Thorin against a seasoned orc warrior, PJ essentially elevated Bilbo from a nothing hobbit to a super hero in one fell swoop. For the entirety of Hobbit 2 Bilbo is more or less the defacto 1st Lieutenant to Thorin.

PJ proves yet again with his mishandling of Bilbo that the nuance and timing of telling a great story are completely beyond his skill level. Calling PJ a great director is akin to calling McDonalds a 5 star restaurant.

quote:
in my opinion the most believably* played character was Tauriel by Evangeline Lily.
Aside from the foolish love triangle, Tauriel was actually a pleasant surprise.

EDIT: At least in Hobbit 2 somebody talked enough sense into PJ's head that he finally got rid of the idiotic stick Thorin was using as a shield. I understand the legend of "Thorin Oakenshield" but it was a one time event. Thorin didn't from that day forward forego dwarven made weapons in favor of a broken branch whenever he marched to battle.

[ 04-14-2014, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Madomir ]

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Gollum Gollum
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At the beginning, I liked the way Bilbo's character was written (and I loved, and still love, Martin Freeman's performance) - totally different from the dwarves, both in experience (he has none, he's not even able to sleep with mosquitos buzzing around him) and in attitude (being scared, or at least worried, about something all the time), and yet brave in his own way and more likable than any of them. But the Azog-Thorin fight scene ruins most of it. I don't mind the fact that Bilbo wants to save Thorin, but I don't like the way he does it: he stands alone against a legion of orcs and, em, succeeds. []
And in #2, he's so affected by the Ring that I hardly like him at all.

[] for Evangeline's performance, which doesn't change the fact that I don't like putting Tauriel into the story []

quote:
the idiotic stick Thorin was using as a shield
[] Madomir. Another interesting thing is that, fighting Azog both times, Thorin uses the very same stick, but doesn't carry it around. Does the stick just descend from heavens whenever Thorin needs it? [] []

quote:
Calling PJ a great director is akin to calling McDonalds a 5 star restaurant.
I just hate to defend PJ [] , but in this particular case, I'll do so. Apart from LotR and TH, I haven't seen any of his films. But he is, em, well, quite famous, I'd say, and there must be a reason for that. So I wouldn't be so eager to say he isn't a great director (not that I'm implying he is one, as I said, I know nothing of him) just because he doesn't understand the works of a particular author (JRRT).
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Madomir
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quote:
I just hate to defend PJ [] , but in this particular case, I'll do so. Apart from LotR and TH, I haven't seen any of his films. But he is, em, well, quite famous, I'd say, and there must be a reason for that.
There are different tools for different jobs Gollum x2. You could have the greatest hammer in the world in your hand, but you ain't gonna cut any wood with it. For that you need a saw. If you're making a CGI extravaganza ala King Kong, or a superhero blockbuster where everything is either blown up or shoved down the audiences throat, then Jackson just may be your tool. But when telling a story with nuance and subtlety PJ is way out of his league. Especially a story like Tolkien's works which have war in the background. A guy like PJ will resort to using the war as a crutch, whenever he's in a tricky spot as a story teller, just insert a battle scene to get himself out of it.
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Tigranes
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A nice video review of the second, er, movie here (warning, strong language):

http://confusedmatthew.com/the-hobbit-the-desolation-of-smaug.html

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Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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Snowdog you are wrong that the barrel ride scene was not faithful to the book and the proof is right here.
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Madomir
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WT []

Tigranes, that's a very entertaining review, much of it is spot on as well. []

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Madomir
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I ended up seeing part of Hobbit 2 again the other night and I noticed something.. Legolas steals Orcrist! When the Dwarves are captured Legolas takes an interest in Thorin's sword, then later, in Laketown I think, Legolas is wielding it! I guess it's not a completely outrageous thing, but it just feels wrong.
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Gollum Gollum
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If so, I think there'll be some melodramatic scene in #3: Legolas has learned that the dwarves can also be noble and honourable, after the battle he forgives Thorin, as well as Kili, his ex-rival, and eventually it's Legolas who puts Orcrist on Thorin's grave, maybe even after disobeying Thranduil, who wanted to have the sword for his own...
[] []

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Aiwrendel
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You may have it, Gollum²!

It could, however be worse. Kili notices Legolas has Orcrist, wrenches it out of Lagolas’ scabbard insisting Thorin (or he) owns it, a scuffle ensues, Tauriel intervenes and lays the sword upon Thorin’s tomb, turns and gives both Kili and Legolas loving looks (torn between the love she has for both), while the elf and dwarf turn their scowls at each other to smiles of reconciliation and nod at Tauriel in appreciation.

Brrrr! I just freaked myself out! []

(And that was a lot of commas!)

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Gollum Gollum
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I left this version out 'cause I had assumed Kili died in the battle. But wait! It's a PJ fanfic (useful expression, Snöwdog, thanks), so maybe he won't die... []
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Madomir
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You guys are right, PJ has to be headed towards Legolas being the one to lay Orcrist on Thorin's tomb at the end, but with that PJ opens up inconsistencies with his version of LotR. When Legolas does this he'll certainly receive a measure of honor and respect in the eyes of the dwarfs, including Gloin. Gloin would no doubt tell his 'wee lad' Gimli about this and of course Legolas already learned of Gimli by talking with Gloin previously. So why then would the meeting of Gimli & Legolas be so contentious at the outset? Even if Legolas forgot about Gimli, it's doubtful Gimli would forget the honor bestowed upon Durin's heir by Legolas.
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Gollum Gollum
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There are already thousands of mistakes in PJ's films and I bet he knows it, so why should he care about another one?
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Snöwdog
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He doesn't. He gets a payday no matter.
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Aiwrendel
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I think Pudgy Jackson has had too many PayDays.

 -

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Curious_mind
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Actually, in this case I'm glad that I finished the book before watching the films. I enjoyed the first movie, haven't seen the second one. The Hobbit: AUJ seems to violate the laws of Professor Tolkien's world. Thorin's character is, imho, spoiled terribly. Dwarves hate Elves! They are shown mannerless, to be honest. "The Riddles in the Dark" is the only part that I found closest to the book. Most Tolkien fans are already upset with what they have been served. Though I hope last movie will be better.
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Gollum Gollum
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Rewatched DoS today. I was frustrated, I didn't remember it was so bad. In AUJ the added scenes could make sense and be interesting to someone who didn't read the books, but here the motto of PJ&Co. seems to be "Make it as long as possible and steal more money from viewers". Do they have no sense of decency at all? Please!

I just can't get this thought off my mind:
When I first watched FotR, my reaction was "OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [] "
When I first watched AUJ, my reaction was "OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [] "
When I first watched DoS, my reaction was "OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [] "
When I watch FotR now, my reaction is: "that's a good film".
When I watch AUJ now, I don't like it, but as you see above, I admitted that something in it "could make sense".
And I'm afraid. I really am. In 10 years PJ would have already made Beren&Luthien/Children of Hurin/whatever else into films. And I'm afraid that after ten years when watching DoS I'll say "that's a good film".

I just don't want this to happen. []

We keep calling PJ's latest ideas the worst thing in the world*, but we don't even realise that while doing this, we also come to terms with the previous ones, although some time ago they were at the top of our hate-list. Sometimes I think that the films get worse all the time just because PJ's trying to say to us Tolkienists: 'Hey, don't call my films trash, for it can always be worse!'. And we take that bait.

* yes, DQI, I know YOU don't []

[ 08-08-2014, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Gollum Gollum ]

From: Cave in the Misty Mountains | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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quote:
"Make it as long as possible and steal more money from viewers"
FYI they don't charge by the minute to view a film, so if anything they're LOSING money by making it longer. []

Note: I'm not talking about PJ particularly, but all film makers. James Cameron's probably the worst offender for pointlessly long films. (No, I don't hate his work either.)

[ 08-08-2014, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: The DarkQueen Iauraearien ]

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Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Hobbit » Purist Rage - Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities! (Page 7)
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