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Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Hobbit » Purist Rage - Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities! (Page 2)
Author Topic: Purist Rage - Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities!
Eledhsúle
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or Pokey? []
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Numenorean Sword Trainer
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I think you're confusing a hedgehog with a porcupine?
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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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The whole Radagast thing was Disney crossed with goblin-men. Don't eat before it either, the goblin-king... []
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Numenorean Sword Trainer
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I think I have a new name for our favorite producer: [] PETER JACKSIE! []

He's an ass. []

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Mithrennaith
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Too much honour for him - ‘Jacksie’ was C.S. Lewis’ pet name.
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Aiwrendel
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My poor cousin Aiwendil. [] A noble Istar depicted as a fool by a creature previously unknown to, and ignorant of, Middle Earth. An invasive species known as the PJackolope.
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Halion
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Galin, being our resident language expert, what kind of name do you think they should have used instead?

Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Sebastian

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Numenorean Sword Trainer
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Mithrennaith

quote:
Too much honour for him - ‘Jacksie’ was C.S. Lewis’ pet name.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jacksie

[ 12-24-2012, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Numenorean Sword Trainer ]

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Mithrennaith
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[]
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Snöwdog
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Wetty, do yourself a favor... rent the DVD when it's bargain night. It isn't worth paying for.
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Madomir
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Saw it last night, where to start...

Why are they being chased by orcs throughout the whole movie? makes no sense whatsoever. And why Azog? Let Azog remain dead, and use Bolg if there must be a premature orc confrontation. This is a big issue I have with PJ, there is NO advantage to this change, it's simply change for change's sake.. hate it! []

The stone giants.. oh my F'n God, what the hell was PJ thinking here? He musta been sportin' a little fat guy chubby when he imagined this scene as "Transformers take Middle Earth". The whole 'stone giant thing' should've been handled more subtly, similar to the golf comment in Bag-end.

Whose bright idea was it to give the Great Goblin a scrotum for a chin?

And of course, maybe the worst and stupidest non-Radagast scene in the movie, the dwarves in the trees adventure. First off, I know this is fantasy but can we have at least a touch of contact with reality? Since when can a pack of wild dogs uproot and topple trees like dominoes? And how unrealistic is it that Bilbo, a hobbit, who has never wielded a sword before will A) be the one companion brave enough to rush to Thorin's aid and B) actually defeat a seasoned orc warrior? And finally, why is Florence Nightingale, aka Gandalf, breathing life into Thorin?

One last thing (for now), could someone please tell me the story of when the Witch-King of Angmar was buried in the deepest darkest hole imaginable? I'm guessing this is another PJ fairytale, I seem to recall the W-K was defeated and essentially chased off, but since the second age represents an admitted gaping hole in my Tolkien knowledge, I can't be certain.

[ 12-30-2012, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Madomir ]

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Aiwrendel
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. . . buried in the deepest darkest hole imaginable? Maybe there is something in Sil?

RotK Appendix B
THE TALE OF YEARS
(CHRONOLOGY OF THE WESTLANDS)


Second Age
1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.
3441 Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring. Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into the shadows. The Second Age ends.

Third Age
1050 Hyarmendacil conquers the Harad. Gondor reaches the height of its power. About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood. The Periannath are first mentioned in records, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador.
1150 The Fallohides enter Eriador. The Stoors come over the Redhorn Pass and move to the Angle, or to Dunland.
1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgul reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.
1409 The Witch-king of Angmar invades Arnor. King Arvaleg I slain. Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are defended. The Tower of Amon Sul destroyed.
1601 Many Periannath migrate from Bree, and are granted land beyond Baranduin by Argeleb II.
1630 They are joined by Stoors coming up from Dunland.
1974 End of the North-kingdom. The Witch-king over-runs Arthedain and takes Fornost.
1975 Arvedui drowned in the Bay of Forochel. The palantíri of Annúminas and Amon Sul are lost. Eärnur brings a fleet to Lindon. The Witch-king defeated at the Battle of Fornost, and pursued to the Ettenmoors. He vanishes from the North.
1980 The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgul. A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI.

[ 01-02-2013, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Aiwrendel ]

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Madomir
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quote:
. . . buried in the deepest darkest hole imaginable? Maybe there is something in Sil?
Radagast ended up with a Morgul blade after visiting the ruins of Dol Guldor (which I thought was supposed to still be a somewhat viable dwelling but I guess not). Radagast gave it to Gandalf who in turn displayed it at a White Council meeting to convince the others that the Necromancer was indeed a truly evil being and not just some bad dude with delusions of grandeur. They recognized the blade as belonging to the Witch-King, who along with his blade was "defeated and buried in a grave so dark and deep there could be no escape", (I'm paraphrasing) this according to Galadriel.

I didn't catch a reference to when this supposedly happened. Since I never heard of it I was guessing 2nd age but after seeing the timeline provided by Aiwrendel it would appear they were refering to somewhere around 1975 of the Third Age. Most likely the 3 stooges weren't thinking of any of that, why bother with canon when they're just making stuff up anyway.

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Tigranes
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Of the parts they adapted from the book, a lot were changed for no discernible reason (except to show some more fighting) and became less funny, or less suspenseful, than in the original. Come to think of it, that's exactly like in the LotR films.
The parts they took from other Tolkien books worked to some extent, but the stuff they invented was ****e and absolutely embarrassing, as usual. Especially the whole Radagast affair. What a waste of time.

[ 01-02-2013, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Tigranes ]

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Madomir
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The concept of adding the info from the appendices and other sources made some sense, especially if PJ wanted the Hobbit to tie into LotR, although I'm not sure it necessitated a trilogy. The stuff that got me was as Tigranes said, the invented stuff.

The whole Azog storyline was utterly pointless and just an excuse to add more violence and cgi tricks, plus unneeded length to the flick. And did we really need to watch Radagast the vet spend 10 minutes bringing a hedgehog back to life? Tough to justify that one. And was that Rhosgobel where Radagast was doing his hedgehog whispering? Hard to imagine a hollowed out stump of a dwelling would require a name. Looked like something out of the swamps of a Shrek movie.

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Galin
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quote:
Galin, (...) what kind of name do you think they should have used instead?
I'm getting a slight connection to TH White's Merlyn (except White's Merlyn had pyjamas to clean the dropping off his head), so maybe turn any of these three into a name: Hedge-pig, urchin, or 'porpentine'


Or Hedgie.

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Numenorean Sword Trainer
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Madomir;

Not to defend the films, but just to dissent here: I will say that PJ was trying to simplify the history of war between the orcs and the Dwarfs; so he wanted to personify it as being mainly between Thorin and Azog. To be fair, using Bolg to continue it would have introduced another character and degree of separation-- as would using Dain; so having Thorin chop Azog's arm off, instead of Dain behead him, was an excusable movie-change IMHO. Otherwise it becomes "well, see, Thorin's cousin killed Bolg's father when the Dwarfs tried to take Moria back; so... it's complicated."
And we know PJ's not one who handles complication well.
In contrast, nothing is as bad as having Thorin hate Elrond because Thranduil, another Elf, didn't become a dragon-dinner for the Dwarves; after all, nobody knew how to kill Smaug, what was Thranduil supposed to do? Shoot him with arrows? That's like ringing the dinner-bell for Elf-burgers.
And Thorin equates Elrond with the Wood-Elves? That's just retarded; apparently PJ doesn't know or care about Elrond's history, esp. considering that Earendil is just "the Elves' most beloved star," and not Elrond's pop. So the name "Elrond Half-Elven is lost on PJ the half-man.

quote:
Whose bright idea was it to give the Great Goblin a scrotum for a chin?
 -
quote:
One last thing (for now), could someone please tell me the story of when the Witch-King of Angmar was buried in the deepest darkest hole imaginable?
I'd say this was taken from the Barrow-wights of the Old Forest, which the Witch King created IIRC by sending the spirits of his minions from Angmar to inhabit the dead bodies of the Cardolans.
That's not even simplifying, it's ordering in a Chinese restaurant: one from column P, two from column J!

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Madomir
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quote:
I will say that PJ was trying to simplify the history of war between the orcs and the Dwarfs; so he wanted to personify it as being mainly between Thorin and Azog. To be fair, using Bolg to continue it would have introduced another character and degree of separation-- as would using Dain; so having Thorin chop Azog's arm off, instead of Dain behead him, was an excusable movie-change IMHO. Otherwise it becomes "well, see, Thorin's cousin killed Bolg's father when the Dwarfs tried to take Moria back; so... it's complicated."
And we know PJ's not one who handles complication well.

Making the conflict between Thorin and Azog would explain Azog replacing Bolg at the Battle of Five Armies. But if simplification is the goal why insert Azog into places Bolg never was? The whole chase across Eriador to east of the Misty's accomplishes nothing that I can see.
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Numenorean Sword Trainer
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But the book did say that the Elves of Rivendell hunted the Goblins.

I would guess, that it makes more sense for Azog to be introduced around that point in the story, than to just come up out of nowhere at the end, after Smaug is killed?
In the story and the film, the Great Goblin is killed, and most of the wargs and goblins of Goblin-town are killed by bears, all long before Smaug; so for Bolg to come out of nowhere, just seemed rather off-the-cuff to me in the book, a deus ex machina to present a common enemy, esp. when the Lord of the Eagles was keeping watch on the events in the area and could see a rabbit running in the woods at night.
This edit is better by tying it together with the old "Dwarf and Goblin Wars" of which Dain's forces were veterans, which Bilbo tells Bard and the Elf-king, i.e. that's 's just a reference with no more information.
Again I'm not defending the movie by any means, but this is a point that did deserve expanding on to show the theme of the war between Dwarfs and Orcs... it's just a shame they left Moria and the balrog out of the picture (such as Thorin being the one who sees the balrog, and won't let the Dwarfs enter for that reason.. but then when he dies, Balin ignores his warning and goes there anyway).

[ 01-19-2013, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Numenorean Sword Trainer ]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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quote:
a deus ex machina to present a common enemy
That isn't the currect phrase. Deus Ex Machina is the introduction of an improbable element to RESOLVE PLOT DIFFICULTIES, not create them. Stick with "plot device" or some such in this context. If you want an example in Tolkien of Deus Ex Machina look no further than the Eagles.
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Numenorean Sword Trainer
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Au contraire; the plot-difficulty to be resolved, was the impending war between the Dwarves and the Men&Elves; also Thorin hates Bilbo.
So presto! up pops a goblin-army for them to fight instead, just in time out of nowhere, just so they can all be friends again and forget about their impending war like a harmless little spat.

I'd call that a deus ex machina, since it's both improbable and incredibly convenient without foreshadowing it in the same story.

Meanwhile the Eagles were well-foreshadowed, being friends with both Gandalf and the Dwarves, and being enemies of the goblins.

[ 01-22-2013, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Numenorean Sword Trainer ]

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Tigranes
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edit: nvm.

[ 01-22-2013, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Tigranes ]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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A war was not required, it was an unnecessary complication added for the sake of a little drama - much like you complain about PJ doing.

Of course. Foreshadowed. The KING of the Eagles just HAPPENED to be out for a fly around and just HAPPENED to fly over that area and just HAPPENED to notice and get there JUST in time to save the day...

[ 01-22-2013, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: The DarkQueen Iauraearien ]

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Madomir
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quote:
up pops a goblin-army for them to fight instead,
The Great Goblin had been killed by the dwarf band, so the Goblins had reason to be there. Smaug was dead, word had spread far and wide, so the goblins also had the opportunity. The Goblin's presence at the Battle of 5 Armies was at least, if not more so, as well forshadowed and reasoned out as the Eagles.

PJ using Azog rather than Bolg may create continuity back to Moria (altho' why not just introduce Bolg as the outraged, vengeful son in the Moria flashback?) but I still don't see any viable plot advantage to having Azog (or any orc) chasing the dwarves across Eriador.

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Numenorean Sword Trainer
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From a quote in the movie-lovers section:
quote:
Probably the strongest scene in "The Hobbit" was when Bilbo is standing invisible right in front of Gollum who sadly realizes that he has lost the Ring. And Bilbo debates in his mind whether or not to slay Gollum. He spares him. This makes me recall in FOTR when Frodo tells Gandalf that Bilbo "should've killed Gollum when he had the chance". Well, this WAS the Chance! And Bilbo found in own humanity the courage not to slay a life.
But if you recall, Bilbo only spares Gollum because Gandalf told him to when practically forcing the sword on him.
They also missed the part where Gollum was sniffing for Bilbo, and so Bilbo was actually in danger. In the film, Bilbo basically just had to wait until Gollum left.

So Jackson put in the silly part where Gandalf and the Dwarves were walking right behind Gollum, giving Bilbo the "urgent need" to get past Gollum in order to join them; when all he had to do was pop off the Ring and say "hey, here I am!" and they would have dealt with Gollum themselves.

It's not much of a lesson for Bilbo to avoid killing Gollum when he wasn't even in danger, or simply because Gandalf told him not to, and if Bilbo had a pacifist-liberal aversion to carrying weapons in the first place. But apparently Jackson loathes "inner-monologue" scenes.

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Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Hobbit » Purist Rage - Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities! (Page 2)
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