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Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Hobbit » PJ Banned From The Hobbit ! (Page 4)
Author Topic: PJ Banned From The Hobbit !
LyraLuthien Tinuviel
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quote:
But most people are at least mature enough to apologize
I wonder if this means Archer has accepted my apology.

I also wonder why she feels compelled to answer each person in a separate post. The resulting triple-posting is in violation of accepted board netiquette.

Oh, and Gna: thank you for recognizing my sense of humor regarding sockpuppets. I'd still like to see your spreadsheet of confirmed puppets, but I don't suppose that will work. I don't have a spreadsheet program, and I seem to recall that you were tired of e-mailing it to everyone here anyway.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Don't say we have come now to the end; White shores are calling.
You and I will meet again.
Across the sea a pale moon rising; the ships have come to carry you home.
And all will turn to silver glass; A light on the water
Grey Ships pass into the West.

From: GreyHavens via Puget Sound | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Gna
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Lyra, I no longer have the sockpuppet spreadsheet file-I deliberately deleted it from my computer, and also deleted the sent messages to which it was attached. It was created in MS Excel, but probably could be converted to another format easily from the .xls file. I recall sending it to a number of citizens; maybe Sherl, Lillianna, or Athene still has it []
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The Witch-King of Angmar
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And to think they said you were obsessively paranoid-- what's next, a database of morgul-spies?
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Roll of Honor Lillianna
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I might have it. Lemme check and get back to you.
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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quote:
I give credit where credit is due, PJ made the LOTR craze we still have today. He made this website, he made all other Tolkien websites, without the movie craze, none of us wouldn't be here.
Are you saying that WGW is one of PJ's sockpuppets? []
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Wasn't MT in existence prior to the movies, and served primarily as a forum to discuss Tolkien's works?
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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This IS a Joe Stupid quote, after all, Éomer.

[ 01-20-2007, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: The Dread Pirate Roberts ]

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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And thus the name is well-earned.
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Was it? ::scrolls up::

So it was. That explains a lot. []

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LyraLuthien Tinuviel
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quote:
I might have it. Lemme check and get back to you.
I'd appreciate it ever so, Lilli.
From: GreyHavens via Puget Sound | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
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I don't remember anyone posting this bit from AintItCoolNews:
quote:
Wingnut and Peter Jackson respond to Bob Shaye's tongue-lashings!!
Ahoy, squirts! Quint here again with the response out of Wingnut about this whole mess that Bob Shaye made when he publicly attacked Peter Jackson today. This is all starting to get into a side of the business that I really hate and AICN rarely covers. I felt comfortable posting the Bob Shaye comments because that seriously affected the future HOBBIT movie. I'm posting this because it's only fair to print Jackson's response, although I don't think he needed to respond. I think Bob Shaye did more damage than good for himself with his comments.

Some pretty crazy sh*t's going down. I had a theory that I posted in the talkback to the previous article and reading the below makes me believe it even more.

Someone sued Paramount over COMING TO AMERICA in which the books on that film were opened and audited. That lawsuit resulted in Eddie Murphy, having nothing to do with the lawsuit, getting a crazy amount of money and never having to go to court. The studio was cheating everybody, so they were forced to pay everybody, not just the person who sued.

It sounds to me like New Line isn't risking just having to pay Jackson what they owe him, but if the books on all 3 movies are made public, they could owe so many more people money. Or they could have completely fulfilled their contractual obligations to everybody, but then why would they deny access to a contracted party? And why would they do everything they could to make it go away, roll it in with that deal for Jackson to direct HOBBIT? It's looking more and more like New Line cooked the books a bit and shortchanged at least Jackson, if not more we don't know about.

The seedy underbelly of Hollywood... I hate dwelling on this stuff, so unless any further comments are directly related to Middle Earth, or a kiss and make-up party happens, this'll be the last I post on this topic.

Here's the official statement from Wingnut:

"Our issue with New Line Cinema has only ever been about their refusal to account for financial anomalies that surfaced from a partial audit of The Fellowship of the Ring. Contrary to recent comments made by Bob Shaye, we attempted to discuss the issues raised by the Fellowship audit with New Line for over a year but the studio was and continues to be completely uncooperative. This has compelled us to file a lawsuit to pursue our contractual rights under the law. Nobody likes taking legal action, but the studio left us with no alternative.

For over two years, New Line has denied us the ability to audit The Two Towers and The Return of the King, despite repeated requests. Film auditing is a common and straightforward practice within the industry and we don't understand why New Line Cinema has taken this position.

In light of these circumstances, I didn't think it was appropriate for me to be involved in New Line Cinema's 40th Anniversary video. I have never discussed this video with any of the cast of The Lord of the Rings. The issues that Bob Shaye has with the cast pre-date this law suit by many years.

Fundamentally, our legal action is about holding New Line to it's contractual obligations and promises. It is regrettable that Bob has chosen to make it personal. I have always had the highest respect and affection for Bob and other senior management at New Line and continue to do so."

From here. WARNING: link contains language.

The comments are interesting, though. I especially like this one, from jimmy_009:
quote:
It will only end when they are legally required to reveal how they fudged the books, heads at New Line will roll, and hopefully when that happens, the half-*ssed Hobbit won't have been filmed yet. Then the new reps at New Line will approach P.J. with heads hung low and apologies in hand. There's is no angle I can see this from where it's P.J.'s fault. New Line thought they pulled one over on him, offered hush money in the form the Hobbit, and is now striking back in the only way it has left, public opinion. Unfortunately for them not only are the public against them, but soon the courts will be too. Heads are gonna roll.
Why can't some of these people join MT and bring some balance? []

Here's another goody from Mr Nice Gaius:
quote:
Let's see - say you worked on a project for nearly 10 years. Then let's say this project was immensely successful and (yes) earned a ton of money. However, when you go to balance your checkbook, you suddenly realize that you're short millions of dollars - money that not only belongs to you...but the people who worked so hard, day after day, for nearly 10 years to help make your project work.
If a 3rd party audit would help to determine the nature of these missing funds (through perfectly legal and professional means), wouldn't you want to know if you actually received all deserved rewards for your labor?

The folks who think this is about PJ's "greed" are insane. Simply because it involves dollar amounts that probably none of us will ever see in our lifetimes doesn't make it something that PJ should just let slide.

And some words of hope from King_Midas:
quote:
Hope is not lost. All we need is for MGM to be smart and realize that they want nothing to do with a $150 million movie that will turn out like Eragon, or worse D&D, and make $50 million because it has absolutely no relation to the cast, crew, and production team that created a franchise that grossed $3 billion worldwide and won something like 20 Oscars. If MGM won’t let Newline distribute the movie in North America, they sure as hell won’t make it at which point the rights can got back to Zaentz and we can all get the PJ version that we want. That’s our best hope at this point. Besides, people need to realize how difficult it is to make high fantasy sound like anything other than childish cheese on the big screen. Reading that sort of dialogue on the page is fine but putting it on film is an entirely different matter. It’s just not pulled off very often and certainly has never been done as spectacularly as PJ did it. If a non-PJ Hobbit is hastily produced (or even if it isn’t and a ton of money is poured into it) there is no reason to believe that it won’t be a total chunk of cheddar like most other fantasy films every produced. And that sort of movie won’t make a lot of money, regardless of its name. People may see it once, but you need a lot of repeat business for a $300+ million box office and I just don’t see that happening under these conditions. Hopefully MGM sees this as well.
And that's all the time I have.

[ 01-20-2007, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Neytari Took-Baggins ]

From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Archer
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Athene
quote:
Yes, but I don't really want to, seeing as most people (in this country at least) consider that to be utterly despicable behaviour. It therefore doesn't really surprise me to learn that you have a string of ex-lawyers and lawsuits to your name, particularly as you threatened legal action because someone jokingly suggested that you might be a sockpuppet on an internet website. It's called a sense of perspective! Try it!
[]

I'm not even going to try to answer the last part of that. Just know that I think you could probably benefit from taking your own advice.

As for the first part, like I said, it wasn't spurious. What part of "wasn't spurious" did you not understand? []

And the "string of ex-lawyers and lawsuits" were all attached to one case--all two of them (lawyers/cases). Maybe you can tell me how one addresses legal malpractice with less than two; I'd definitely be interested! And if you want to know the truth about my "spurious" case, here's the ugly details: I sued my lawyer for failing to file a suit against a serious injury/ accident incident that caused me to lose my job at the postal service. He just simply forgot to file it! Instead of trying to work out the problem reasonably with me, he denied ever having being retained by me, so that I was forced to have to file against him. Problem was every lawyer in town seemed to be his friend, so it was hard to get support for it.

Yes, quite spurious, all of this. Of course, I know you'd be the better person in this situation and let it go, right? Who needs a job anyway? []

Good grief, you strike me as an intelligent and perceptive person Athene. Why don't you think next time before you post this kind of infammatory crap--or at least acquaint yourself with the details before you make such a presumptuous comment. Open mouth--insert foot.

quote:
Just to add a little more perspective, the only reason that anyone suggested you might be a sockpuppet is precisely because you only post in the film forum, despite being an alleged literary purist. The texts really don't need defending from PJ's effort, particularly not on MT where hardly anyone watches them anymore. They have survived that assault pretty well, and may well survive others. If, as you say, you have actually taught the books, you are well placed to offer literary insights that the rest of us would welcome. Please consider it?
Maybe you didn't read the part where I said I would be happy to try to add something, and will when I get to it. Where do you keep missing this stuff?

Also, when I joined MT, it was mainly to speak my bit on the films. There was a lot of buzz about them in those days, and I felt the other side needed to be said as well to counter and balance--especially since many people who wanted to discuss it in my personal or professional realm would get seriouly offended and start with the personal attacks if anything negative was said about them. At least it was a bit better on the forums, in that there were a few who felt in some ways like I did.

As for the literature bit, I could discuss the lit ad nauseam with my colleagues or friends, so I felt less of a need to spend time there, though I've got nothing against it, and have even prepared a few ideas occasionally in the past, though never followed through on it, due to my attention deficit. [] And I disagree about the film discussion being unncessary, as there are equally those who support, dislike, or fall somewhere in the middle with the films (with the extremes in the minority), and so long as there is discussion to the positive and middle ground, there is no valid case agaisnt there being discussion to the negative ground.

Besides, the one thing that amazes me, though it shouldn't, is the tendancy for people to be unable to accept that someone is going to do something differently than what everyone thinks is acceptable, or "as it should be." Maybe someone just really sees things differently, hmm? Unfortunately, anything that behaves differently is subject to gossip because people dont generally feel confortable with anything that seems too different from what they are used. Hence, because I choose to spend time on the film forum as a purist, and not the lit forum, natually that makes me subject to rumor. It's just sad really. People need to realize that not everyone is going to fit nicely in the better part of the bell curve. Some of us are just going to be different.

Well do as you please. If you feel the irrepressible need to turn me into a sock puppet because you can't accept that, then knock yourself out. /shrug.

Gna
quote:
I'd also like to point out that Lyra expressed a good sense of humor about the sock-puppet accusations, which stands in contrast to Archer's whining and threats of lawsuits, and to her subsequent descriptions of her legal prowess.
*swat!* Damn Gnat.

(See my advice to Athene above. You'll sleep better at night.)

LyraLuthien Tinuviel
quote:
I wonder if this means Archer has accepted my apology.

I also wonder why she feels compelled to answer each person in a separate post. The resulting triple-posting is in violation of accepted board netiquette.

Of course I accept the apology, and I also realize you were just trying to be funny. But, meh, a joke lives and dies, you know, and this one was just getting annoying, like most jokes do when they don't know when to move on towards the light. I really doubt there wasn't some serious suggestion behind it too, as Madomir himself admitted he wasn't sure.

And yes it's always easy to say afterwards "it was just a joke! Hey I could say the same thing--"It was just a joke! What are you all crying about?" But it's not a very effective way to deal with it.

I'll admit though, I laughed the first time you brought this up many months ago; in fact, I even had to show some friends of mine who read the boards just to keep up on WK's posts (they dislike the films too), so we could all have a good chuckle at the absurdity of the idea, if nothing else. But six months later, the novelty of not existing starts wearing thin.

Actually, I may take that back: since this silly subject began, I've gotten a few PMs from WK, who surprisingly strikes me as being a nice person, relatively mature, and just way smart, so that maybe I should rethink the idea of being his sock puppet as being a negative one. In fact, it has a decidely distinctive ring to it, the more I think of it. []

"Archer--the softer, cuddlier side of WiKi"

Hmmm. It could work.

As for the triple post, I apologize. These forums are a bit unwieldy, compared to the other boards I belong to, and trying to look up the right quotes and add the right italics and bolds in all the right places, and deleting and reinserting just so, gets really ovewhelming, so I wimped out and kept it in short, manageable chunks. Very sorry for my poor netiquette. I won't do it again. []

Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic, I think. . .

[ 01-21-2007, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Archer ]

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Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas
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quote:
Are you saying that WGW is one of PJ's sockpuppets?
No, I'm just saying that his forum wouldn't have had the popularity if there was no LOTR Movie craze. I know this was created before the movies came out, but wouln't have survived if the movies didn't come out.
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LyraLuthien Tinuviel
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RE: Archer's .jpg
[] times ten!

From: GreyHavens via Puget Sound | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Ney:
quote:
Why can't some of these people join MT and bring some balance?
I don't understand what you're trying to say in that post. I don't think New Line's decision (or alleged financial shenanigans) is the issue, regardless of whether it was true or not. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that NL has fudged the books to screw the Wingnutters out of money they earned.

It could very well be that New Line is in the wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that the real gist is the result: Jackson will not be making a movie based on The Hobbit. Period. That's a development some of us here consider to be a blessing, regardless of how it came about.

I said as such already here.

As for some of the other comments (ie wishful thinking) that Jackson will be back on board, I highly doubt it. We're already seeing his star fade, and the other studios have seen it as well.

King Kong was largely forgettable; it rode the coattails of LOTR success for its decent box office and DVD returns, but it's not one for the history books. (Note that Universal Studies had earlier nixed Jackson's proposed remake of Kong after the Frighteners proved to be a flop.)

Moreover, Universal and Fox have already pulled the plug on Halo.

And frankly, this Jackson-worship of the kind you reposted from AICN is mind-boggling. Go watch a Kubrick film. Or David Lean. Or Scorsese. Or Kurosawa. Jackson is all cinematic pulp and fizz.

I will concede this: Jackson, with his low-brow, childish filmmaking style might have been better suited for The Hobbit anyway. All silliness and whimsy. After all, there's less meat in the story for him to spoil, as opposed to LOTR. But, for the hack job he did on LOTR, it's only just that he never be allowed to touch Tolkien again.

[ 01-21-2007, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Silmahtar ]

From: Vinya-Tárilos | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
No, I'm just saying that his forum wouldn't have had the popularity if there was no LOTR Movie craze. I know this was created before the movies came out, but wouln't have survived if the movies didn't come out.
It wouldn't have had the boost it had for a few years, the swarming in of newbies in large numbers (which has subsided now). I trust it would have survived even without that boost.
From: Narnia, also connected with Norway | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LyraLuthien Tinuviel
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quote:
Besides, the one thing that amazes me, though it shouldn't, is the tendancy for people to be unable to accept that someone is going to do something differently than what everyone thinks is acceptable, or "as it should be." Maybe someone just really sees things differently, hmm?
This caps it for me: Archer could not possibly be the same person as WiKi.
WiKi not only cannot accept different opinions, he seems to think anyone with a different opinion has to be thoroughly evil. He also seems to see it as his duty to stamp out this form of evil, and he tries to do this by insulting the intelligence of people with opinions that don't line up with his. Liking New Line Cinema's Lord of the Rings does not make a person an imbecile, nor should it be cause for hatred, even from book-purists.

From: GreyHavens via Puget Sound | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
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What I mean is I think MT could use a few more people who think Peter Jackson is a great director and the LotR movies are masterpieces of film.

I watched "A Clockwork Orange" last night. I wouldn't compare Jackson to Kubrick. More like George Lucas at this point in time. He's got potential, though. There's only one Kubrick and will never be another, but Jackson, I believe, is another special person.

There is quite a large difference between saying Jackson is the new Kubrick and saying he has a
quote:
low-brow, childish filmmaking style
[] What boggles my mind is that anyone could say that.

[ 01-21-2007, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Neytari Took-Baggins ]

From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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I never said Jackson was the "new Kubrick" or that Jackson fans regard him as such. My point was that Jackson fans should expand their movie watching to include real masters -- they'll see that Jackson is not in that league.

Upon further thought, I can see how one could argue that Jackson is a master; with the current style of filmmaking so prevalent today, he is entirely on-trend. Hell, the money he's raked in (and other mega-hits like Pirates) practically proves it.

Perhaps the qualities the greats have brought to the medium are no longer in vogue, or even accepted by today's audiences. Scene composition is trumped by hyper kinetic camera work. Dialogue is supplanted by motion. and storytelling takes a back seat to digital effects. Big movies have become an interpretation of video games, not literature or theater.

Kind of an empty kingdom, if you ask me... But the recent crop of intelligent, well-made films in 2005-6 have renewed my hope that the reign of Jackson was short-lived.

e: as for Jackson's "low-brow, childish style", I think it's pretty evident throughout all three films. Here's a quick sample off the top of my head, and in no particular order:
  • Flight to the ford, sloppy camera work
  • Merry and Pippin fireworks shenanigans
  • The "Bigatures", especially of Barad Dur
  • Dwarvish bodily sounds
  • State-the-obvious dialogue
  • The Big Red Eye
  • The Mountain of skulls
  • Legolas surfing on a shield
  • Legolas pulling a Luke Skywalker on an Oliphaut
  • ... along with a Fred Flintstone slide down the trunk
  • Cartoon Witch King deflating
  • Dwarf tossing
  • The interminable battle at Helm's Deep
  • Gimli's jokey lines
  • Crazy old Denethor getting ass whupped by Gandalf with mad bowstaff skills

Of course I could go on (and on, and on...) Some of this might have worked better in The Hobbit. In LOTR, they were disastrous.

[ 01-21-2007, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Silmahtar ]

From: Vinya-Tárilos | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
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You continue to assume that Jackson fans don't watch movies by the masters. That bothers me. I took three semesters of cinema classes in which we watched many films considered to be great by filmmakers who are considered to be great. I love Kubrick. I've yet to dislike any film true film-apreciators are supposed to like. I consider myself to have good taste. Can't we just agree to disagree on LotR? I think it's swell, you don't, there's really nothing more to be said.

I believe that all of the things you listed are colored by bad attitudes.

I don't think the flight to the ford was sloppy. Matter of opinion.
The fireworks were brief and funny.
The bigatures were spectacular.
Yeah, with you on the bodily sounds, but there aren't enough of them to ruin the film.
The dialogue. There isn't much obvious, and what there is is there to make the film more accessible to any moron who has been dragged to the film by their movie-savvy friends.
The red eye worked. Not like how I imagined it, but it worked.
Mountain of skulls was cool.
Leggy on the shield bothers me definitely (all of the Let's Showcase Legolas! bits bother me), but not enough to ruin the rest of the film.
I don't know what you mean by cartoon Witch King deflating
I'll never understand why people are so bothered by the dwarf tossing.
I don't see what you dislike about Helm's Deep.
Gimli doesn't have enough joke lines to ruin the film
Denethor works fine if you just watch the film instead of expect it to be bad or exactly like the books.

[ 01-21-2007, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Neytari Took-Baggins ]

From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Dread Pirate Roberts
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I think the important thing that this thread has almost lost sight of is: Peter Jackson is banned from the Hobbit. []
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I never said you were a sockpuppet, Archer, so please don't lump me in with that one. I was trying to explain why people might get that impression. I also didn't say or imply that your lawsuit was spurious - I merely said that I wasn't surprised to hear that you had been involved in legal proceedings seeing as you appeared to be boasting about being litigious in your previous post. If you didn't mean it to come across as boasting, then I apologise, but that is how it read to me. Reading it again, it still does.
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Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas
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I think the thing that confuses everybody is at the end of the films

quote:
BASEDon the book written by J.R.R. Tolkien
Based being the key word, if they took it word for word from the book only the 1,000 purists, if that would have been happy this was for entertainment, not for following the books word for word, no movie had ever followed a book word for word, cause it wouldn't work!
That's why theres a difference (not only in intelligence) between people who read the books and people who see the movies, sometimes they get one confused with another. Ohh and one more thing, what I like about Jackson is that he puts to miond the visuals of Middle-earth.

[ 01-22-2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas ]

From: Philly | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Dread Pirate Roberts
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Dear Mister Stupid,

Nobody, not ONE SINGLE person at Minas Tirith has EVER suggested that Peter Jackson should have taken "it word for word from the book." Your MANDOSesque point, therefore, seems to be aimed at no one at all.

Why not talk with the people who are here rather than people who don't exist? It will make for better conversation.

From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas
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quote:
Nobody, not ONE SINGLE person at Minas Tirith has EVER suggested that Peter Jackson should have taken "it word for word from the book."
Then how come everyone critique's every little thing he does differently from the book? such as, directly from Silm

quote:
Flight to the ford, sloppy camera work
Merry and Pippin fireworks shenanigans
The "Bigatures", especially of Barad Dur
Dwarvish bodily sounds
State-the-obvious dialogue
The Big Red Eye
The Mountain of skulls
Legolas surfing on a shield
Legolas pulling a Luke Skywalker on an Oliphaut
... along with a Fred Flintstone slide down the trunk
Cartoon Witch King deflating
Dwarf tossing
The interminable battle at Helm's Deep
Gimli's jokey lines
Crazy old Denethor getting ass whupped by Gandalf with mad bowstaff skills

mmhhmmm. []
From: Philly | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » New Line Cinema's Hobbit » PJ Banned From The Hobbit ! (Page 4)
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