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Minas Tirith Forums » Languages of Arda » Translations (Page 16)
Author Topic: Translations
LyraLuthien Tinuviel
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It looks right to me. I'd close the bow, though, as it looks like "Marc" the way you have it.

"Strogie" looks more like "Stroges" (rhymes with "rogues") the way you've written it.

Though my Tengwar style is slightly unconventional. Not in simple forms like "Mark," though; it's straightforward.

[ 05-09-2009, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: LyraLuthien Tinuviel ]

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Galin
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quote:
Was my translation of "Mark" correct?
In my opinion is reads 'march' as you have it, and looks like the end part of Tolkien's rendering of 'Westmarch' in The Lord of the Rings title page -- except that JRRT puts the vowel over the character for r here, that is, number 21 in the chart.

So I agree, use number 4 instead of 3 for 'Mark'. In the same example Tolkien uses number 4 for 'Tolkien' and 'king'.

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Sam Gamgee
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Thanks guys.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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*haul thread out of the dust to save making her own*

Could someone translate 'to wherever it may lead' into whatever version of elvish is most approprite for Mirkwood elves please? (I did try to learn a long time ago but the little I learned has rusted many moons since and I cannot find this anywhere, despite it being film-related.)

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Galin
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If I recall correctly there's no real way to tell which Elvish language the Elves of Mirkwood (in general) spoke -- one must choose between a number of late but variant statements, each of which may have been written 'before or after' the other.

Author-published text tells us that the Elves of Lorien (at least) spoke Sindarin with an accent, and that Legolas spoke with these Elves -- though Legolas himself might have spoken both Sindarin and Silvan Elvish in any case, which doesn't mean his people, in general, did.

Externally there is very little about Silvan Elvish anyway, so one could choose Sindarin on that basis alone (which is one of the choices from these variant statements as well). I delve into Neo-Sindarin names sometimes, but not much else.


Or to put it another way: the Mirkwood Elves did not speak Quenya []

Despite that the Hobbit filmmakers seem to be casting for an Elf named Itaril! I get why they wouldn't want to use Idril, but Shirly some other name could have been lifted.

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Galin
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By the way, there's no need to thank me for being no help at all!
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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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Thanks, Galin. []

Anyway, ANY Elvish will do, I just want to confuse people with it. []

E: [] At:

quote:
Despite that the Hobbit filmmakers seem to be casting for an Elf named Itaril! I get why they wouldn't want to use Idril, but Shirly some other name could have been lifted.


[ 05-27-2011, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: The DarkQueen Iauraearien ]

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Like Galin said, it would more probably be in Sindarin or the Silvan dialect, but we don't know the Silvan language and I don't know much Sindarin, so I had to do this in Quenya (which is a much better language, anyway [] ).

Anyway, it's been a few years so I'm pretty rusty, but this is what I came up with: Yanna níras mittanya.

It literally means "To which it will lead."

Yanna is from ya 'which' (as in yassë 'in which') plus the allative ending -nna 'to, towards' (as in Elenna 'starward'). Níras is neo-Quenya (i.e. not created by Tolkien) from níra, which basically means the potential or faculty to do something, plus the pronominal ending -s 'it' (as in utúvienyes 'I have found it'). Mittanya is also neo-Quenya, and literally means 'lead' or 'into.'

[ 05-27-2011, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Éomer ]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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Thanks, Éomer! Now I can torment people elsewhere with a confusing sig. []
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Artaresto
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Grammar []
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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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What about Mr Grammar?
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Artaresto
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Grammar is secksy. []

I'm a grammar nerd. [] Kinda. []

[ 05-29-2011, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Artaresto ]

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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I do like a bit of Grammar myself. []
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Galin
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quote:
I said Despite that the Hobbit filmmakers seem to be casting for an Elf named Itaril! I get why they wouldn't want to use Idril, but Shirly some other name could have been lifted.
Seems we have moved from Quenya Itaril to Sindarin (looking) Tauriel 'forest-daughter'.

Makes a bit more sense... though why we need some Elf with either name is a different question...

[ 06-21-2011, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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Roll of Honor Aikanáro
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I may be wrong about this, but doesn't Tauriel 'forest-daughter' work equally well in both languages?

The root word is Sindarin taur, Quenya taurë, and the final ë would be dropped with the addition of -iel anyway.

The suffix -iel is the same in both languages (Altariel -> Galadriel)

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Vanima i metta nauva, nan anda ar sarda nauva i mallë.

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Galin
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quote:
I may be wrong about this, but doesn't Tauriel 'forest-daughter' work equally well in both languages?
Yes, although a Sindarin context makes more sense for an Elf from Taur-e-Ndaedelos (another name for Mirkwood), I agree.

quote:
The suffix -iel is the same in both languages (Altariel -> Galadriel)
I think that's true enough but Naltariel or Galadriel does not mean 'daughter of light', as we have older *rig-elle 'crowned maiden' here, rather than -iel.
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Roll of Honor Aikanáro
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quote:
I think that's true enough but Naltariel or Galadriel does not mean 'daughter of light', as we have older *rig-elle 'crowned maiden' here, rather than -iel.
Ack, you're absolutely right, it's alta-riel(lë). That was a really bad example to use. [] Sorry.

Míriel, then, is an actual example of -iel in Quenya. []

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Roll of Honor The DarkQueen Iauraearien
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Galin

quote:
though why we need some Elf with either name is a different question...
Because Tolkien didn't really flesh out his background characters (or include many women, I think it was a phobia [] ) and if you're making a film you can't say things like "Bob sent his handmaiden to take the prisoners their tea", it doesn't work. Purists may not like it, but you can't film Tolkien as he wrote it. []
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túrë a enda
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I am not sure whether or not anyone has posted the answer already or if perhaps it is just non-existent, but does anyone know the Quenya translation for "lock"? I've seen "lock of hair", and there is perhaps words for "close" and "latch", but otherwise not "lock". []
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Snöwdog
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First off, welcome to Minas Tirith [b]túrë a enda/b]!
How is Kent? (I lived many years just north of you in South Seattle)

On your query, If I remember right, depending on its use it would be fin or finn. I believe the 'lock of hair' is finde. I'm a bit rusty though.

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túrë a enda
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Thank you, for both the welcome and the translation! As for Kent, it's quite nice, a little bit of everything, since it's right in between Des Moines and Federal Way. It's like Seattle, only smaller and has a more suburban feel to it (probably because it is indeed suburban [] ). Anyways, how do you like South Seattle? Not much of a city person myself but I think it's pretty nice. []
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LyraLuthien Tinuviel
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Getting bigger, though, and busier, with the ShoWare station. Had my graduation ceremony there a year and a half ago.
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Snöwdog
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It's been a number of years since I was in South Seattle as I left for Brisbane in 2007. I was back briefly in 2010 over the Seattle summer.

We Pac NW types probably shouldn't hijack the Translations thread and maybe take the talk south to the Pony or Log or Perch. You are welcome at Snowdog's Inn... []

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Galin
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Sindarin fin, find, finn are all attested as words for hair. Tolkien once though Finwe meant (Words, Phrases and Passages)...

quote:
'(...) This is best explained from SPIN- 'fine thread, filament' distinct (though probably utimately connected) from PHIN- 'skilful, neat, clever' (especially adapted to hands and fingers)*

Seen in Finwe 'man of manual skill' (...)

So here we have a base PHIN- from which words with 'skill, dexterity' meanings derive, and base SPIN- from which words for hair derive, and in another entry SPIN-ID 'lock, tress of human/Elvish hair'

Although later in The Shibboleth of Feanor, Tolkien will note a Common Eldarin PHIN 'hair', Q. fine 'a hair' finde 'hair, especially of the head' finda 'having hair -haired,' but seems to say here that although the first element was often later explained as a word for hair, this is 'doubtful' with respect to the name Finwe, as...

quote:
'... All the Eldar had beautiful hair (...) but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, adundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people.'
And also from this text:

quote:
'Fingon it may be noted that the first element was certainly Quenya finde 'hair' -- a tress or plait of hair* (cf. findesse a head of hair, a person's hair as a whole), but this is not conclusive proof that the name Finwe was or was thought to be derived from this stem.

*37 Common Eldarin *phini- a single hair, *phinde a tress; Sindarin fin; find, finn-'

Not that this is any help however, necessarily []
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túrë a enda
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quote:
We Pac NW types probably shouldn't hijack the Translations thread and maybe take the talk south to the Pony or Log or Perch. You are welcome at Snowdog's Inn... [] []
Sorry, going to hijack this thread for one more post: Where might this Snowdog's Inn be? []

Edit: Oops, found it... Well, I'm a minor when it comes to alcohol, but I suppose if my virtual character wasn't... []

[ 11-22-2013, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: túrë a enda ]

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