In my opinion is reads 'march' as you have it, and looks like the end part of Tolkien's rendering of 'Westmarch' in The Lord of the Rings title page -- except that JRRT puts the vowel over the character for r here, that is, number 21 in the chart.
So I agree, use number 4 instead of 3 for 'Mark'. In the same example Tolkien uses number 4 for 'Tolkien' and 'king'.
Registered: Dec 2004
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-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Aug 2002
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*haul thread out of the dust to save making her own*
Could someone translate 'to wherever it may lead' into whatever version of elvish is most approprite for Mirkwood elves please? (I did try to learn a long time ago but the little I learned has rusted many moons since and I cannot find this anywhere, despite it being film-related.)
From: Mordor | Registered: Apr 2002
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If I recall correctly there's no real way to tell which Elvish language the Elves of Mirkwood (in general) spoke -- one must choose between a number of late but variant statements, each of which may have been written 'before or after' the other.
Author-published text tells us that the Elves of Lorien (at least) spoke Sindarin with an accent, and that Legolas spoke with these Elves -- though Legolas himself might have spoken both Sindarin and Silvan Elvish in any case, which doesn't mean his people, in general, did.
Externally there is very little about Silvan Elvish anyway, so one could choose Sindarin on that basis alone (which is one of the choices from these variant statements as well). I delve into Neo-Sindarin names sometimes, but not much else.
Or to put it another way: the Mirkwood Elves did not speak Quenya
Despite that the Hobbit filmmakers seem to be casting for an Elf named Itaril! I get why they wouldn't want to use Idril, but Shirly some other name could have been lifted.
Registered: Dec 2004
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Anyway, ANY Elvish will do, I just want to confuse people with it.
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quote: Despite that the Hobbit filmmakers seem to be casting for an Elf named Itaril! I get why they wouldn't want to use Idril, but Shirly some other name could have been lifted.
posted
Like Galin said, it would more probably be in Sindarin or the Silvan dialect, but we don't know the Silvan language and I don't know much Sindarin, so I had to do this in Quenya (which is a much better language, anyway ).
Anyway, it's been a few years so I'm pretty rusty, but this is what I came up with: Yanna níras mittanya.
It literally means "To which it will lead."
Yanna is from ya 'which' (as in yassë 'in which') plus the allative ending -nna 'to, towards' (as in Elenna 'starward'). Níras is neo-Quenya (i.e. not created by Tolkien) from níra, which basically means the potential or faculty to do something, plus the pronominal ending -s 'it' (as in utúvienyes 'I have found it'). Mittanya is also neo-Quenya, and literally means 'lead' or 'into.'
quote:I said Despite that the Hobbit filmmakers seem to be casting for an Elf named Itaril! I get why they wouldn't want to use Idril, but Shirly some other name could have been lifted.
Seems we have moved from Quenya Itaril to Sindarin (looking) Tauriel 'forest-daughter'.
Makes a bit more sense... though why we need some Elf with either name is a different question...
quote: I may be wrong about this, but doesn't Tauriel 'forest-daughter' work equally well in both languages?
Yes, although a Sindarin context makes more sense for an Elf from Taur-e-Ndaedelos (another name for Mirkwood), I agree.
quote: The suffix -iel is the same in both languages (Altariel -> Galadriel)
I think that's true enough but Naltariel or Galadriel does not mean 'daughter of light', as we have older *rig-elle 'crowned maiden' here, rather than -iel.
Registered: Dec 2004
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quote: I think that's true enough but Naltariel or Galadriel does not mean 'daughter of light', as we have older *rig-elle 'crowned maiden' here, rather than -iel.
Ack, you're absolutely right, it's alta-riel(lë). That was a really bad example to use. Sorry.
Míriel, then, is an actual example of -iel in Quenya.
From: Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:though why we need some Elf with either name is a different question...
Because Tolkien didn't really flesh out his background characters (or include many women, I think it was a phobia ) and if you're making a film you can't say things like "Bob sent his handmaiden to take the prisoners their tea", it doesn't work. Purists may not like it, but you can't film Tolkien as he wrote it.
From: Mordor | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sorry. ![[]](icons/icon28.gif){kind=icon}
) and if you're making a film you can't say things like "Bob sent his handmaiden to take the prisoners their tea", it doesn't work. Purists may not like it, but you can't film Tolkien as he wrote it. 
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