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Minas Tirith Forums » Languages of Arda » Translations (Page 15)
Author Topic: Translations
Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Here's Quenya:

Áv' appa!

From: Vinya-Tárilos | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thromalis Zarzamee
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Would this be English to Elven? Me is confuzzled.....
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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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I was responding to Peachy Phoenix's question on the previous page...
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Galin
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Back to (a bit more about) Nimrodel...

quote:
S. Nimrodel name of a stream; originally name of an Elven-maid loved by Amroth, King of Lórien. It appears to be Sindarized? Nim is evidently the Telerin word nimbi 'white'. CF. Nimrais 'White-peaks'. Rest is unclear. If Sindarin it could be 'lofty star', S. raud, high, lofty, noble, from (a)rátá, Q arata: S. also arod, noble, cf. -rod in names like Finrod. But it could contain an eement seen in S. -roth, rod ROT, cave.

Or be a feminine, from rodel, lady, high lady.

From PE17. Compare to the UT reference (already posted).
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Finranfin
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Want to try translating my girlfriends name?

Her name in english words that describe the meaning of the swedish and latin words is:

she-wolf queen mountainside/hillside/slope bloom/blossom/flower

The last two are put together, mountainside-blossom.

I did a few months ago and came up with the following:
Narmotari Lairëlossë

[ 10-03-2007, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Finranfin ]

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Nash Rómerandir
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I need help! For a short-story I'm currently writing, involving an Eldar ghost ship, I'd like to make a "pun" and call the ship "The Flying Dutchman" (either in Sindarin or Quenya)... However my mastery of these languages (or lack of thereof) is hindering.
It's pretty urgent since the deadline for the contest I'm writing the story for is set for Monday!

Of course, I know "Dutch" will be impossible to translate directly, so I settled for "north" instead... Thus my own research led me to the conclusion that the "Dutchman" (northman) part would translate as Fornadan in Sindarin. Is that right? []
If you have a better idea of how to translate "Dutch" (if you know enough of that word's etymology to propose a likely synonym for example) then I'm all ears []

But the part that really bothers me is "Flying"... I haven't got a clue how I can translate that into Sindarin...
Edit: R(h)eviad maybe? (I used the Hiswelókë dictionary.)

Also, any idea idea how that would translate in Quenya?

EDIT2: HELP... Please!

EDIT3: Well, unless someone comes up with something better before tomorrow 8PM GMT, I'll have to go with Rheviad Fornadan...

[ 11-02-2008, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Nash Rómerandir ]

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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My Quenya isn't as good as it used to be, but "fly" in Quenya is rimpa, and my best guess to change that to "flying" would be to add the verbal suffix -ta, making it rimpata, I think. Formen is Quenya for "north." The translation for "man" would depend on what you need. The general word for "man" is nér, whereas the word for Man (as in Human) is fírima.

So you could either have I Rimpata Formenér or I Rimpata Formefírima. I think. Like I said, my Quenya isn't all that great anymore. [] But if those are correct, I think the former would work better.

But this is past the time you needed it, so I guess I just wasted my time. []

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Nash Rómerandir
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Too late it is indeed...

But you haven't really wasted your time... I think I'll write a follow up on the story, from the POV of other Eldar and thus may use the Quenya name []

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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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From this definition, "dutch" means "vulgar", as in "common". I remember coming across a word for "common", but can't find it. (Like Éomer, my Quenya has become rusty, too... [] )

As for "flying", it functions more like an adjective, and I don't recall how to turn, say, wil- (sail, float, fly) into an adjective -- unfortunately, Ardalambion is not loading at the moment; I hope it's still up! []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Vëarenen ilnutin nardar."

From: Vinya-Tárilos | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mithrennaith
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No, that is not what it says there, Silmahtar. It only uses the Latin word vulgaris, which means 'of the people'. If you want to know its real origin, go down on the page to the bit from the Online Etymology Dictionary, where it says:
quote:
from M.Du. duutsch, from O.H.G. duit-isc, corresponding to O.E. þeodisc "belonging to the people," used especially of the common language of Germanic people, from þeod "people, race, nation," from P.Gmc. *theudo "popular, national"
It thus simply means '(language) of the people', and is closely related to 'Theoden' (þeod-en), the 'man embodying the nation', thus 'king'.

So it is one of sizeable group of names for peoples and their languages which, in the language concerned, just means 'the people' or 'the language (of the people)' and only became applied to a specific people as their form in the original language became assimilated to other languages.

In German, ´deutsch´ means ´German´, ´Deutschland´ is ´Germany´. In Dutch, ´Duits´ and ´Duitsland´ also mean ´German´ and ´Germany. However, a different form of the word, ´diets´, now rather obsolete, came to mean ´the language of the common people´, thus more or less the Dutch dialects (some of which are very close to dialects across the German border) as opposed to the standard language. The latter is in Dutch always called 'Nederlands', literally 'Netherlandish', and that is also used for 'dutch' in any meaning applied to the Netherlands.

'Diets' was also used to refer to the Dutch-speaking people, in the Netherlands and Flemish Belgium taken together, but this use has been discredited as it was appropriated by the Nazis during the WW II occupation and became associated with their 'Blut-und-Boden' (blood-and-soil) idiology.

Incidentally Pennsylvanian Dutch are of German or German-Swiss origin, so 'Dutch' in that case came from 'deutsch', not from 'diets'.

It is thus purely by accident, that in English, 'Dutch' came to be applied to the Netherlands, rather than to Germany. If it had been retained from Anglosaxon 'þeodisc', in which case it would probably have become something like 'Thedish', it would have applied to English itself!

If any Quenya (or Sindarin) word should be coined, based upon the etymologie of 'Dutch', one should thus be looking for a root or element meaning '(of the) people' rather than 'common'.

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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Looks like someone struck a nerve. []
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Mithrennaith
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Well, people should read, before posting sillyness ... []
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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It's remarkable how many demonyms' basic translation is some variation on "the people," isn't it?
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Nash Rómerandir
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Well, but doesn't "flying man-of-the-people" sound weird to you? []

I guess i'll keep "North" then! []

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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Mith, you mistook my mention of the word "vulgar"; I didn't intend to allude to how it's used in English, but rather in Latin.
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Mithrennaith
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Yes Silmahtar, I see that now - I didn't see it then. Problem was that explaining 'vulgar' as 'common' did not really draw attention to the Latin sense, as both words have negative connotations in modern English. Also 'vulgaris' ultimately has the same root meaning als 'þeodisc': 'of the people'. So your looking for a root with meaning 'common' again (mis)lead me to conclude that you had been going for the modern English sense of 'vulgar', rather than for the Latin one. Sorry to have fallen into that trap. []

O well, all misunderstandings cleared aside, the main thrust of my post, namely the relations between 'dutch', 'deutsch', 'duits', 'diets' and 'popular tongue' (or indeed 'common speech' [] ), still remains. []

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Roll of Honor pi
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From Letters we learn to say bull. I wonder what else we don't know since it wasn't published?
quote:
342 From a letter to Mrs Meriel Thurston 9 November 1972
I am honoured by your letter, and quite willing that you should use the name of Rivendell as a herd prefix, though in my ignorance I don't think the actual valley of Rivendell would have been suitable for herd breeding.
I should be interested to hear what names you eventually choose (as individual names?) for your bulls; and interested to choose or invent suitable names myself if you wish. The elvish word for 'bull' doesn't appear in any published work; it was MUNDO.


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Roll of Honor Silmahtar
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Mith, no worries... []

pi, there's a TON of previously unpublished stuff out there that scholars have been collecting. I used to be fairly plugged into it, but alas, not so much these days.

These are all my bookmarks for Elvish languages. Some of the links might be broken; I've not perused them in a while. The first three are really excellent (and thankfully, still up!) []

Language resources
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/
http://www.elvish.org/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xelag/quenya.html
http://pw1.netcom.com/~heensle/lang/elvish/elvish.html
http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index/indexs.htm
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/
http://www.brindin.com/parma/
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_home.html
http://groups.msn.com/AdvancedQuenyaotherFormsofElvish/
http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html
http://web.comhem.se/~u86023928/at/
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/numerals.htm
http://www.skymind.com/~ocrow/tengwar/intro.html
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/affix~1.htm
http://khallandra.tripod.com/sindarin/
http://www.jrrvf.com/~glaemscrafu/texts/index-a.htm
http://www.jrrvf.com/cgi-bin/hisweloke/sindarin.cgi?

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Sam Gamgee
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Well, to set this up, let me first say that I'm getting married this year to the love of my life (July 25th, to be exact). My fiancée is a recent convert to Arda, and so it shocked me when she mentioned that she wanted to get my name tattooed in elvish (by that she means in english but written in the Tengwar) on her back. I was surprised since I'd been thinking about getting the first three letters of her name (Ash) on my wedding ring finger.

So, that's what we're doing. And now I need some clarification so I don't make a permanent Tengwar grammatical or spelling mistake. (x)

 -

Now, I've used the inscription on the ring to try to confirm this. That would spell 'ash', correct? Cause that's how it looks on the inscription, but with 'ash' being in the Black Speech.


Now, the other two get more tricky for someone who doesn't know much about the Tengwar. For her tattoo, either we'd use my real name, Mark, or my nickname, Strogie (long 'o'). Here's what I think it might look like, but I'm sure I'm off in several (if not all) areas:

Mark:
 -

Strogie:
 -


Any help would be much appreciated. If anyone could be so generous as to draw it up in MS Paint or something and can't host it, just email it to me at mark_strogie@hotmail.com.

Thanks, guys and gals.

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"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

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Galin
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quote:
Now, I've used the inscription on the ring to try to confirm this. That would spell 'ash', correct? Cause that's how it looks on the inscription, but with 'ash' being in the Black Speech.
From the picture in your post, it looks like you have included part of the next tengwa -- in other words, along with the vowel you should just have number 11 on the chart in Appendix E. The chart gives the basic shape of the tengwa used for 'sh' in English (without any vowel of course), but on the One it is written in a different style, and the next tengwa connects to it.

Note this tengwa is part of series three, and Tolkien writes that in languages like Westron 'which made much use of consonants such as our ch, j, sh, Series III was usually applied to these;...' And if you have a copy of Sauron Defeated Tolkien wrote 'Shire' in the Elvish letters, for example, in The King's Letter.

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Roll of Honor pi
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Cool idea, Sam!

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Galin
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Here's another version in a different style... I didn't check it all but you can see the difference with respect to 'ash' in any case.

http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/images/tengtut_ss1.jpg

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Sam Gamgee
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So then, this would be correct, right?

 -

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"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

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Galin
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Yes, I agree. Of course you can still employ the style as seen on the One (which many seem to like), or any style you like really.

If you wanted two characters -- instead of one character with an a-tehta as you have now, Tolkien did use character number 24 for the vowel a in an English version of the King's Letter. In this mode you would use 24 and 11 for the same word 'ash'.

JRRT used a slightly 'fancier' version of 24 when he began the text with the name Aragorn for example, giving it two descending strokes on the right side, descending from the top 'horizontal' stroke. And for the end initials (A.E.) he gave it a more extended top horizontal stroke (more than appears in the chart anyway).

It's up to you anyway.

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Sam Gamgee
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I think I'll go with the vowel accent, with the little flourishes that are present in the ring script. The tat is going on my ring finger, so I don't want it to be too big.

Was my translation of "Mark" correct?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

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