Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  5 
Minas Tirith Forums » Languages of Arda » Hebraic interpretations of Tolkien languages (Page 4)
Author Topic: Hebraic interpretations of Tolkien languages
eldon
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2109
posted      Profile for eldon   Author's Homepage   Email eldon   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
How many times do I have to say it, Aragorn 2? I'm NOT claiming Tolkien intended Hebrew to be present in his languages!

Every letter in Paleo-Hebrew is a symbol/picture and has a meaning and when Paleo-Hebrew letters are combined in a word, the meaning of the individual letters combine to convey the meaning of that word.

Modern Hebrew is not like that, but is only a stylized remnant of ancient Hebrew.

By the way, Luthien, THANK YOU for your thoughtful post, I enjoy your insights and appreciate your interest.

[ 04-06-2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: eldon ]

From: Gatewood Missouri USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dark Lord Andúril
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2564

posted      Profile for Dark Lord Andúril   Author's Homepage   Email Dark Lord Andúril   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Galadriel being a personification of the Holy Spirit in Tolkien's work (from a Christian perspective)
Im sorry? I can see no clear connection between Galadriel and the Holy Spirit. If there are any, please enlighten me...
From: In Imladris I dwell... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
eldon
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2109
posted      Profile for eldon   Author's Homepage   Email eldon   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Anduril, here is the quote from later in the thread that draws upon the similarity of Galadriel to the Holy Spirit:

Additionally, the Hebraic meaning of Galadriel [the seeress, gift-giving Elf queen in The Lord of the Rings] is "a spring of water/ heap of testimony, PASTURE of the Most High". See Strong's words # 1530/1567, 7471,410: Galade rehee Ale!

As such, for those who can receive it, in the trilogy she is a clear personification of the Holy Spirit, the Spring of Living Water, witness-bearer, Guide and Giver of gifts, whose Law (of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus) makes us free from the law of sin and death!

------------
I realized after I wrote the above that personification is probably too strong a word for the comparison, Galadriel's traits are simply similar to the Holy Spirit's as portrayed in the Bible. There are scriptural references available if you want to investigate further.

From: Gatewood Missouri USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lassë
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3063

posted      Profile for Lassë   Email Lassë   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Beware eldon and all others, for soon I will reveal to all a whole new way to read Tolkien: the homosexual reading! I know that Tolkien didn't intended the homosexual undertones, but amazingly enough they are there: Why did Bilbo never marry? Why did Beleg look with delight upon Túrin? And were Frodo and Sam really just friends? []

From reading this wonderful thread I have realized that it doesn't matter what Tolkien intended. And since he is now long dead he can't defend himself against some weird hidden hand.

(EDIT: spelling)

[ 04-07-2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Lassë ]

From: Berlin | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Master of Doom
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3204
posted      Profile for Master of Doom   Email Master of Doom   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Haha good point, comrade.

Eldon, Galadriel is most certianly not a Hebrew word. You're pulling things out of your ass.

From: Philadelphia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leire
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1770

posted      Profile for Leire   Email Leire   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Errrr . . .
Lassë: [] What? That is absolutely absurd. Tolkien was a Christian and he was a devout Christian, so it is possible that Tolkien did incorporate Hebrew into his Elven language intentionally. It is, however, highly doubtful. Tolkien was not, on the other hand, homo-sexual, so you have no basis what ever for any such thread.

Aragorn II [] Was it absolutely necessary to be profane? []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
With one wing broken and flapping like a kite and his blood issuing from many wounds Heartless the dragon took to the sky. He made it out to sea, nearly all the way to the last Elven ship, and as he crashed into the sea Heartless roared; “Take care . . . of Wretched, the last broodling, for me . . .” With a great crash Heartless gave up, and plummeted into the sea. A great steam arose where he had fallen, and the last Elven ship sailed safely into the mist.

Erth Relm, Part II

From: MO | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lassë
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3063

posted      Profile for Lassë   Email Lassë   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
My Dear Leire, I'm very sorry that my irony didn't come across to you. My point was that it would be absurd to claim that there are hidden homosexual themes in Tolkien's works, but it would be just as absurd to claim that there are hidden messages in hebrew in the invented languages. Of course both things can be claimed, but no one should expect that either provide a better reading of Tolkiens works.

I thought my irony was easy to get. At least Aragorn seems got it.

From: Berlin | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor bombadil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1329

posted      Profile for bombadil   Author's Homepage   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I got it too, Lassë! But, as you can see by very early posts in this thread, I gave up banging my head against this particular wall a loooong time ago. Some people will believe what they dearly want to believe, no matter what.
From: Meridian ID | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
eldon
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2109
posted      Profile for eldon   Author's Homepage   Email eldon   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Hah! I suppose next you'll claim that Gollum talked with a lisp!
From: Gatewood Missouri USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Master of Doom
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3204
posted      Profile for Master of Doom   Email Master of Doom   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Aragorn in Hebrew roughly means "eldon eats babies"
From: Philadelphia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Athene
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3473

posted      Profile for Athene   Email Athene   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
*sniggers to herself in huge empty office*
*gets very strange look from security guard*
*pretends to be possessed by devils*

From: Hades, UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Madomir
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3084

posted      Profile for Madomir   Email Madomir   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I can't believe i just read this entire thread, it's depressing, 20 minutes of my life that i'll never get back.... alot of time and hard work but absolute drivel nonetheless.
From: northern hemisphere-ish | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dark Lord Andúril
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2564

posted      Profile for Dark Lord Andúril   Author's Homepage   Email Dark Lord Andúril   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, but what about all the BAD things Galadriel did? Surely she cant be the holy spirit, because the holy spirit is part of the trinity, all good.
From: In Imladris I dwell... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Imbëar
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 729
posted      Profile for Imbëar   Author's Homepage   Email Imbëar   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
An interesting thread degraded.

Perhaps your "literary forums" are dying because of terrible attitudes most lately expressed?

How about you contribute something of substance before you begin trampling on what you've termed others' "garbage"? You think you have some kind of enormous credibility because you got in line to say "I denounced Eldon, and all I got was this lousy shirt!" You waited for that? You read this whole thread, only to stand in line for that?
None of this thread, at any point, inspired you to think further?
Wow.

I highly, highly doubt that you can understand anything Tolkien has to offer with such limited, closed, and hostile minds.

Here's a hot tip.

Stay out! No one told you to come! No one told you to post a thing! If you want to belittle Eldon's work you're too damn late...plenty of others have covered all the bases for you.
So, I say again, Stay out!

Disrespectful, unimaginative, arrested, and vain.

That's what you are.

Imbëar

From: Auburn, CA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
eldon
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2109
posted      Profile for eldon   Author's Homepage   Email eldon   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Anduril, what BAD things did Galadriel ever do?

(I'm not talking about the woman who played Galadriel in the movie, but the "real" Galadriel in the book.)

Thanks for the earnest exhortation there, Imbëar, but actually I did invite "orcish derision" when I opened this thread.

Let the orcs have their say: their lack of incisive wit speaks volumes to belittle their own critiques. The dragon always bites his own tail.

From: Gatewood Missouri USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leire
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1770

posted      Profile for Leire   Email Leire   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
LOL at Imbëar! *Applause* []

Lassë I did understand the irony in your post, I simply decided to not respond in kind. One childish turn does not deserve another. []

From: MO | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Talan
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2413

posted      Profile for Talan   Email Talan   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Anduril, what BAD things did Galadriel ever do?
Well...even I can answer this one, Eldon. Having read the Silm, She followed Fëanor into Middle Earth, and we all know what happened on the way there: The Kinslaying.
From: Austin, TX. Home of awesome. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor bombadil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1329

posted      Profile for bombadil   Author's Homepage   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
their lack of incisive wit speaks volumes
Actually, most of your detractors on this thread have shown plenty of intelligence and understanding of the topic.
From: Meridian ID | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lassë
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3063

posted      Profile for Lassë   Email Lassë   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Leire,
So you understood the irony but ignored it because...? - You knew that I was being ironic and purposely put forth an absurd claim, but you had to say:
quote:
That is absolutely absurd
and

quote:
you have no basis what ever for any such thread
- since you knew that I was being ironic and would never seriously* post such a thread, then why did you still find it necessary to argue against it? No one disagrees with you in that a homosexual reading of Tolkien would be absurd.

And then there's something that I don't wholly understand:

quote:
I simply decided to not respond in kind. One childish turn does not deserve another
... So I was being Childish? I'm sorry if you see it that way. I'd agree that my example was a bit colorful but I think it described my opinion pretty well, and am sorry that the childish way I presented my opinion made you ignore the content of my post.

Actually I think we might agree on the matter at hand. I think that the Hebrew reading adds nothing of value to an understanding of Tolkien. I also think that a homosexual reading adds nothing. You think that an homosexual reading adds even less than the Hebrew (being more unlikely). I might even agree with you on that one. But both are useless, and my point in the first post (and the following as well) was to make clear how absurd the Hebrew reading is by suggesting an even more unlikely reading.

Do I make myself clear this time? - I have tried to avoid irony in this post, so this time you can take me litteraly and respond to what I say instead of both ignoring the irony AND the point I'm trying to make.

[*: though maybe as a joke]

From: Berlin | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Master of Doom
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3204
posted      Profile for Master of Doom   Email Master of Doom   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Eldon posted that Tolkien's languages had secrete Hebrew meanings, and provided some long translations. Yet the only Israeli in this forum (and certainly the person who knows Hebrew the best) said he made up a large portion of the translations. You wouldn't tell Tolkien that you know more about Arda than he, just as a college student who doesn't know Hebrew shouldn't tell a native Israeli whose main language is Hebrew that he knows more about Hebrew than the Israeli. Tolkien clearly didn't mean for entire pages of Elvish to really be Hebrew. There's about as much of a chance of that as for the entire pages of Elvish to really be binary.
From: Philadelphia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Athene
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3473

posted      Profile for Athene   Email Athene   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I thought it was actually quite an interesting point. I don't say I agree with everything eldon has to say about Hebraic links, but Tolkein himself was very interested in language and would probably have found influences for "The Naming of Things" from many sources. That doesn't mean that he deliberately based any of his made-up languages on real languages though.

The history of the Israeli people gives them strong cultural links with many of the countries in which they settled, and English is, after all a very mixed language. For anyone interested in such things, I would recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond, which chronicles the history of humanity from 13,000 years ago, and has an absolutely eye-opening chapter on languages.

[ 04-08-2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: TheLastElf ]

From: Hades, UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
eldon
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2109
posted      Profile for eldon   Author's Homepage   Email eldon   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Talan, for the answer as to Galadriel's bad actions in the Sil. I was not considering her actions prior to the timeframe of LOTR in viewing her as similar to the Holy Spirit.

Both foretell things to come, both give supernatural gifts to men, both comfort and guide their followers, both are associated with springs of living water.

And Bombadil, I was not referring to ALL my detractors as lacking wit, just the orcish variety. No offense intended to you or any other detractors from among the free peoples.

From: Gatewood Missouri USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Anduril wrote:
quote:
Yes, but what about all the BAD things Galadriel did?
Talan wrote:
quote:
Having read the Silm, She followed Fëanor into Middle Earth, and we all know what happened on the way there: The Kinslaying.
From Letter #353 (4 August 1973, twenty-nine days before Tolkien died at the age of eighty-one):
quote:
Galadriel was ‘unstained’: she had committed no evil deeds. She was an enemy of Fëanor. She did not reach Middle-earth with the other Noldor, but independently. Her reasons for desiring to go to Middle-earth were legitimate, and she would have been permitted to depart, but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwë, and the ban on all emigration.


[ 04-10-2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lúthien
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2934

posted      Profile for Lúthien   Author's Homepage   Email Lúthien   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
**WARNING - The following post contains intentional irony **

Lasse - I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the homosexuality theme ... take a look at this quote from the first chapter of FoTR.

quote:
‘But what about this Frodo that lives with him?’ asked Old Noakes of Bywater. ‘Baggins is his name, but he’s more than half a Brandybuck, they say. It beats me why any Baggins of Hobbiton should go looking for a wife away there in Buckland, where folks are so queer.’
quote:
Anyway: there was this Mr. Frodo left an orphan and stranded, as you might say, among those queer Bucklanders,
quote:
You can say what you like, Gaffer, but Bag End’s a queer place, and its folk are queerer.’
And there's tons more like that!
From: Raleigh | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
eldon
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 2109
posted      Profile for eldon   Author's Homepage   Email eldon   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry I've not visited this thread in such a long time. Last time I looked it was locked away somewhere, I'm glad to see it back in an active classification.

For anyone interested, here are a couple more interpretations that were not posted previously. For those only interested in mocking and denying any merit herein, your lack of vision is worse than any torment I could wish upon you.

====================================================================

====================================================================

At the Doors of Moria, Gandalf uttered these words in an attempt to get them to open:


Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen! Fennas Nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!

The Strong's Hebrew word numbers approximating these sentences are 596, 108, 1973, 153, 1958/1931, 544, 6436, 5251, 5050 8593, 3937, 8591, 1004,3926.

The interpretation is:

Lament the mist of antiquity whence force is Truth! By the knives of dawn remove the sail upon the house of deceitful tongues!

This counsel calls us to grieve the fact that history is written by the victors such that the Truth is shrouded, and exhorts us that by prayer (the knives of dawn) we can take away the impetus of historical lies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the doors of Moria, these words were wrought in letters of ithildin:

Ennyn Durin Aran Moria: pedo mellon a minno. Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimboro Eregion teithant i thiw hin.

Strong's numbers: 581, 1865, 765, 4179, 6299, 4411, 4483, 5973, 5271, 2005, 291, 2459/7213/880, 708, 202, 8410/1881/1781/1835, 339, 8414, 2004.

The Hebraic interpretation:

Those of liberty, shouting for joy are seen of Yah to ransom the Camp as ordained. By youth, Lo, a brotherly well of richness is lifted up weaving power by judgement of Law, inhabiting the wilderness thereby.

[ 05-08-2006, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: eldon ]

From: Gatewood Missouri USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Languages of Arda » Hebraic interpretations of Tolkien languages (Page 4)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  5 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1