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Minas Tirith Forums » Languages of Arda » Hebraic interpretations of Tolkien languages (Page 3)
Author Topic: Hebraic interpretations of Tolkien languages
Roll of Honor Nuinamarthion
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You're welcome! []

You keep talking about "hypothesis", Imbear. I can see that perhaps you're exercising the art of appreciation and being a gentleman. But I must say that there is simply no hypothesis in this "discovery", for this is no "science", nor conducting "research". In any case, this is a good example of the "fallacy of composition."

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Roll of Honor bombadil
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quote:
Certainly, we will never "solve" Tolkien's Myth, but each new argument(angle) casts a light on a turn in the maze towards the Center.

And herein lies the difference between thee and me, Imbear. I do not see "Tolkien's Myth" as something that needs to be solved. I see his writings as wonderful literature. Do they need to be understood? Of course. Are they a puzzle begging to be solved? I think not. Therefore, arguments such as these you refer to do not cast a light at all; rather they create shadows that in reality do not exist as tangible entities. (Pardon my muddying your metaphor, but it's the best I could do.)

Furthermore, I cannot sit idly by while others misinterpret and miscast wonderful literature. I feel compelled to defend Tolkien's work and his intent. That is why I've posted.

Excellent posts, Nuin.

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eldon
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I agree that Tolkien's is wonderful literature, especially The Lord of the Rings! I mean in no way to detract from that fact.

What amazes me about the interpretations I presented is the powerful coherence of imagery that emerged despite the admittedly amateurish attempt at translation.

In your own minds, even if you entirely dismiss the possibility of the Hidden Hand at work, you can't accuse me of being some sleaze trying to $ell you something.

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Telperion
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I agree with bombadil. I don't think LOTR is something that needs to be 'solved'. Its just a great work of art. And I don't think there is any sort of a 'hidden message' in Hebrew in the text - intentional or not.
You can always find these things if you are looking for them. It's psevado-science (sp?).

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The one had leaves of dark green that beneath were as shining silver, and from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling, and the earth beneath was dappled with the shadow of his fluttering leaves. Telperion the one was called in Valinor, and Silpion, and Ninquelótë, and many other names;
The Silmarillion, "Of the Beginning of Days"

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Imbëar
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Forgive me, but I did not mean to imply that Tolkien's work should be solved.
I don't think it can be solved.
I don't think of Tolkien's text as linear, as problem-solution. I think of it as a body.
The understanding that I would like to work towards is more like a group speaking around a kitchen table.
I used the maze because the first step requires the seeker to turn away from the center. The final reward is not what lies at the center, but the twists and turns, the redoublings, the confusion of the track.
As Tolkien said, "not all who wander are lost."

Readers won't be misled if they have minds to judge for themselves.

Imbëar

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Roll of Honor bombadil
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quote:
As Tolkien said, "not all who wander are lost."

But the implication that goes with that is: Many who wander are in fact lost. []

To go back to your maze analogy: Mazes have many twists and turns, but they also have many dead ends. It is my opinion (and the opinion of most others who have posted here) that the subject matter of this thread is one of those dead ends.

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eldon
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aMAZEing grace, how sweet the sound,
that saved a wretch like me!
I once was LOST, but now am found,
was blind, but now I see.

(couldn't pass that opportunity up, thanks for the lead in, Bombadil!)

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Imbëar
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And I have posted previously that dead ends are invaluable. I don't see the danger.

What was it Thomas Edison said about his 10,000 attempts?

Those who are lost, wander.
Those who wander (by choice) are not lost but on the way to discovery/being found.

Imbëar

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Eldon, I have been reading this post ever since you first posted, as well as other posts regarding what an individual gets out of reading Tolkien. In the past, I indirectly accused you of coming here to preach the Word of God. Looking back, I must come to the opinion that this was not your intention, and I would like to apologize for dismissing you so quickly. However, for reasons stated before, I still think your theory doesn't work! [] But I would like to say I'm sorry for accusing you of coming here just to preach. (I'd still be careful of some individual statements though!!) Imbear, of course, eventually made me change my tune on your motivation. So I still don't like your theory, but I'm sorry about saying you posted here solely for alterior motives.
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Telperion
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Well while we're on the subject of lost roads, what about

quote:
I don't know where I am and I don't want to know, if only I can get away.
Bilbo.
Seems like the proper quote for this thread []

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Roll of Honor bombadil
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Priceless, Eldon! []

Agreed, Imbear; but, once one has discovered a dead end, one doesn't gain anything by continually returning to that dead end and pounding one's head against the wall. The more intelligent response is to chalk it up as a learning experience and move on.

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eldon
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quote:
Eldon, I have been reading this post ever since you first posted, as well as other posts regarding what an individual gets out of reading Tolkien. In the past, I indirectly accused you of coming here to preach the Word of God. Looking back, I must come to the opinion that this was not your intention, and I would like to apologize for dismissing you so quickly. However, for reasons stated before, I still think your theory doesn't work! But I would like to say I'm sorry for accusing you of coming here just to preach. (I'd still be careful of some individual statements though!!) Imbear, of course, eventually made me change my tune on your motivation. So I still don't like your theory, but I'm sorry about saying you posted here solely for alterior motives.
******* All is forgiven, Thorin, I really am not offended by anything you said.

Part of the problem is that I originally posted the "interpretations" on a faith discussion board, and I didn't edit the words posted as commentary before posting here. Thus they were interspersed with "preachy" comments, though I meant no offense towards anyone by them.

Considering the words of the interpretations themselves, especially Galadriel's song "Namarie", my comments were actually pretty mild and can be taken with a grain of salt.

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eldon
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Someone told me that Mr. Tolkien himself was not always consistent with his pronunciations of elvish.

My understanding of Hebrew was that vowel pointing is a later development anyway, so I mainly just matched up the sounds of the consonants in both languages.

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Imbëar
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Could you just edit your wandering and unhelpful post down to the main insults?

Your ejemplo was no more insightful than anything else in this thread.
Edit: I've never met a person who pronounced Len as Lin. Moreover, the aesh (is there a "c" is there?) that you have employed signifies the flattened sound found in something like the English "hat" or "mat."
I suppose that you are suggesting a long - a - sound, such as "plane"? end Edit.
Sorry,

Imbëar

[ 06-04-2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Imbëar ]

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Roll of Honor bombadil
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*reads his own last post of 5-20-02*

*stops pounding head against wall*

*chalks up learning experience*

*marks this dead end so as never to return to it*

*moves on*

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eldon
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One more for the road!

In the chapter, A Journey in the Dark, to kindle a fire with which to fight off the Wolves surrounding the company, Gandalf utters these words:

Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!

interpretation: Youth where ample splendour builds up truth! Youth judge woe, deliver over, break in upon!

Strong's word numbers: 5271, 575, 155, 539-544, 5271, 1835, 337, 5064, 2050.

The fire kindled against the wolves is paralleled by the whole book's influence among youth to inspire and encourage them towards truth and against all evil. As such, Gandalf's utterance embodies the theme of Professor Tolkien's work.

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Viscount Værtalion
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what are these 'strong's numbers'?
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eldon
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"Strong's numbers" refers to Strong's Hebrew Lexicon, the numbers identify the specific Hebrew words used as equivalents to Gandalf's words in the passage.
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Leire
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Hail and well met Eldon! It is awesome to have another bro in Christ on the board. That was a very interesting interpretation of Tolkien's elvish language . . . [] Excellent job on all the work and research, however your premise might be somewhat faulted. Perhaps it was an intentional inclusion on the good Professors part, but it seems to me that you might be reaching. When I seek for Tolkien's faith in his works, I usually look more at TS and the incredible tapestry that was presented there. Melkor mirrors the fall of Satan very well, and the entire history of Middle Earth holds well with the realitys of the spiritual and physical realms. Don't forget that Tolkien despised allegory, perhaps we can find the true depths of his faith in the story itself; a thing of beauty that Tolkien created to glorify God. Could be, though I am now the one who is reaching. []
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eldon
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Thanks, Leire, nice to "meet" you also.

My original premise was just to look and see if there were Hebrew words that would match the sounds of Tolkien languages fairly well.

While what I compiled may not prove anything to anyone, I found it edifying.

I don't suggest that the Professor intentionally put Hebrew word fragments into his languages though. He spoke against people trying to find hidden meanings therein himself.

I fully agree with you however, that Tolkien's creative genius is a credit to the everlasting brilliance of Yah Most High!

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Roll of Honor The Woodwose
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Hey eldon , what's up? I read the entire thread today.

*you hear a powerful "WOOOSHH" go over the woodwose's head*

It was all very interesting and I admire your dedication to your little translation thing (even if it probably isn't accurate [] ). It's also good to see another Jesus freak, in the house! Anyways, I was wondering where you have been for the last year, and why did ya decided to start posting again?

But welcome back all the same, I'd like to see your take in some of the other threads in the [near] future. []

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Master of Doom
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Have you ever heard of the dead sea scrolls, Eldon? They were written over two thousand years ago by ancient Jews speaking ancient Hebrew, and they were written in the same characters that Telperion and I can read today. And I trust Telperion's knowledge of Hebrew far more than yours, for he is an Israeli whose native language is Hebrew.

Telperion-The word Rohirrim does not take the plural "im" because old English does and they speak old English in Rohan, because the Rohirrim call themselves "Eorlingas". There are two types of plurals in Elvish which I am aware: -im (like masculine Hebrew words) as in Rohirrim, Gondolidrim, Haradrim, and -r, as in Noldor (Noldo), Valar (Vala), Maiar (Maia).

The word "Khazâd" in Dwarvish such as "Khazâd-Dum "and "Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!", which means "dwarf", would be pronounced similarly to "Chazak chazak v'nitchazet", which is a Hebrew phrase that is said at the conclusion of each book of the Torah. Just found that interesting.

[ 04-03-2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Aragorn II ]

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eldon
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Yes, Aragorn II, I've heard of the Dead Sea scrolls and acknowledge that the characters therein are pretty much the same as modern Hebrew. As noted earlier in this thread though, there is a more ancient form of Hebrew characters sometimes called Paleo-Hebrew.

For the record, I trust Telperion's knowledge of Hebrew more than my own as well. I also trust the Hebrew lexicon I used though.

Perhaps you guys believe that languages are all cut and dried, absolutely bound by rules of grammar, syntax, etc. I see languages more as a living thing used in a marvellous variety of ways to communicate Truth among and unto men.

No apologies offered and no umbrage taken, friends!

Greetings to you also, the Woodwose, I have been posting (though sporadically) ever since I joined here. In fact, on the current board I posted in the threads "Was Faramir wrong to wed Eowyn?" and "I found the Entwives!"

I only added this recent interpretation to this thread because Gandalf's utterance was only recently brought to mind. Yah bless!

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Roll of Honor Lúthien
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Wow! What an interesting thread. A pity I hadn't run across it earlier.

It seems to me fairly obvious that Tolkien didn't intend to embed any secret meaning, and also fairly obvious that eldon was not trying to imply that he was.

I've always been intrigued when I've heard about such patterns and translations. (Ie the "prophecies" in the bible and in Moby Dick). Also, numerical analysis has been known to produce some pretty interesting results.

I'm not saying that these things are not coincidence or that they contain any special message for us, but to me it spurs an interest in what exactly the nature of coincidence is. The fact that patterns can be found in anything is an intrinsic part of the 'laws' of our universe. Perhaps a deeper understanding of these patterns would allow us to reach, if nothing else, a higher level communion with our world. To me it is a deeper question than just whether or not a message is "real" or not.

The movie PI explores this issue a little.

I'm not sure if I'm doing a good job of explaining myself. It's an issue that is difficult to discuss. I think because it's one of those things that is not necessarily meant for the human brain to be able to comprehend. Sometimes I feel as though I have a firm grasp on what it is I'm trying to think about, only to have the concepts become slippery and wriggle out of the "grasp" of my mind.

Sorry if that came across pretentious.

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Master of Doom
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eldon, I highly doubt that Tolkien intended this to be the case. And I trust telperion's judgement that your translations are complete garbage. And Paleo-Hebrew was not pictographic, it had a 22 letter alphabet.
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