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Author Topic: English Tengwar
Eol the Dark Elf
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I had these listed as the English 'alphabet' in (the?)Tengwar bt Fingy's transcription link has several letters different to mine: I know there is a 'choice', but the letters from there agreed with neither of the choices.

I made this a while ago not paying sufficient attention [] ) so they may well be incorrect (I haven't my books with me [] )

So here's my list:

1 = t / 2 = p / 3 = ch / 4 = k
5 = d / 6 = b / 7 = j / 8 = g
9 = th / 10 = f / 11 = sh / ch
12 = dh / 13 = v / 14 = zh / 15 = gh

17 = m / 18 = n
21 = r (untrilled) / 22 = w / 23 = y

----------

25 = r (trilled) / 26 = rh / 27 = l / 28 = lh
29 = s / 30 = s / 31 = z / 32 = z
33 = h / 34 = (h)w / 35 = y / 36 = w

(The numbers refer to the table in Appendix E)

Are these 'right'?

Another thing: is it completely optional as to where you place vowels i.e. before or after a consonant)?

From: Nan Elmoth | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Imbëar
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They are probably correct, I'm not near my book.
Anyhow, the option of vowel placement should be consistent. If you begin a document with vowels before consonants, maintain the pattern - unless you wish to confuse friends and yourself.

I recommend a phonetic spelling, much as Tolkien does by obviating the soft -c- with an -s-rune, and spelling with -k- for the hard consonant.

In lecture, I revert to the Tengwar for notetaking when fellow students keep peering at my papers.

Imbëar

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Eol the Dark Elf
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Many thanks Imbëar []

You also answered the question I forgot to ask []

One final question, may I ask what you use for 'X'?

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Warg
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I Dont believe ther is one for X

I checked at http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~smartin/elfique/english_eng.htm
but I didnt see any thing.

Perhaps it would be a combination between two other consonants like c and s.

[ 01-31-2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Warg ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
...Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons of the earth. Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.
-Chief Seattle of the Suquamish Tribe.

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The Laurenendôrian
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In your list, you appear to have combined 12 (ch with 11 (sh), and then shifted the numbers on 13 through 16 down by one.

You also have 'm' and 'n' the wrong way around.

Grade 6 you have given as was normally used for Quenya and the like, but appendix E says "According to the principle observed above, Grade 6 should then have represented the voiceless nasals; but such sounds (examplified by Welsh nh or English hn) were of very rare occurence in the languages concerned, Grade 6 was most often used for the weakest or 'semi-vocalic' consonants of each series." In English therefore, perhaps we should try to follow that pattern, but that being said I have never done so, and it seems easier to continue using the given system. If anyone wished to discuss such a system, I would be happy to do so.

23 is a consonantal 'y' only.

I would suggest using 26 and 28 as rd and ld as Quenya does, because they would be of more use as such, but again I have only just realised this possibility myself.

---

also:
quote:
There was of course no 'mode' for the representation of English. One adequate phonetically could be derived from the Fëanorian system. The brief example on the title page does not attempt to exhibit this. It is rather an example of what a man of Gondor might have produced, hesitating between the values familiar in his 'mode' and the traditional spelling of English. It may be noted that a dot below (one of the uses of which was to represent weak vowels) is here employed in the representation of unstressed and, but is also used in here for silent final e; the, of and of the are expressed by abbreviations (extended dh, extended v, and the latter with an under-stroke).
Perhaps we should try to 'properly' formulate a method for the transcription of English, as he indicates is possible. If anyone else is interested in doing so, please say so.
[]

---

Regarding the placement of vowels, it would seem logical to place them over the following consonant, since most words end in a consonant (and it is stated that for such languages, the following consonant was used).

[ 01-31-2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: The Laurenendôrian ]

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Morwen
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Wow! thanks for the link to the tengwarpage. I´ve tried to translate it myself, but it didn´t go that well... I just love the characters and it will be the coolest thing ever to take notes in Tengwar. Know a guy how does it in hieroglyfs, but this is way better.
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Eol the Dark Elf
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One more q. ( [] ) should the script be joined? I know it is likely to be a choice, but is it more common to have it unjoined or joined: The title page has unjoined script, but the One has a joined script (although presumably, this could e because it was engraved (or something!).
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Warg
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I have tried to join the script when I write in Tengwar. It is difficult for me, because I dont think there are any rules about how to do that.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
...Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons of the earth. Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.
-Chief Seattle of the Suquamish Tribe.

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Shador
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I posted the following on the trivia page a few weeks ago, somewhat to the consternation of its inhabitants. Perhaps it is more appropriate here.

Many years ago (or was it yesterday?), one of my friends translated the runes of the title page. Due to the phonetic spelling, the ambiguous placement of vowels, and the difficulty discerning breaks between words, we made some errors. Herewith, a more recent attempt.

First the Angerthas at the top of the page:

Dhelordovdheringstranslatdfromdheredbok

(The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book)

And the Tengwar at the bottom:

vwestmarkbijohnronaldreultolkienherinizsetforth dhistorebvworbvringedvreturnbvkingasseenbidhhobits

(of Westmark by John Ronald Raul Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the Return of the King as seen by the hobbits.)

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Aurë Entuluva!

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Morwen
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Have anyone had a closer look on the text on the ring in the movie? They are writing tengwar joined, but some of the letters they have changed in a way to make them more, I don´t know, artistic. They are a little hard to read, but it seems like they have tried to invent something similar to Gothic letters...I haven´t seem them anywhere in Tolkien´s work, but they are beautifull...but how much can you invent yourself?
I´m new in this Tengwar-buisness, but I was still surprised how fast you could actually learn to write some desent form of Tengwar. My big problem in this field, is how to write the 3 extra vocals we have in danish and swedish. Have anyone here expirience from writing other languages than english?

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Warg
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It is like that in the book as well. mayhaps My eyes are not keen enough to find much of a patern, but I can write quicker with out joining it. It is not like English handwriting.
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Eol the Dark Elf
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I've found it almost impossible to join the characters up. I may have more luck with a calligraphy pen (for some reason...) but I doubt it.
From: Nan Elmoth | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
gram
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I found a website long ago that suggested typing out this with an English alphabet font then converting it to a font called Tengwar Cursive to get the Ring Verse like it is in the chapter "The Shadow of the Past":

AE5,Ex26Yw1E¾^z³= AE5,ExxwP%1Ej^
AE5,Ex37zE1E¾^z³= X#w6Ykt^AT`Bz7qpT1Ej^

It does look like it, but without the two squiggley marks at the beginning and end of the first line.
[] []

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Nienna
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the inscription on the ring ae ancient elvish. i think the 'proper' term for the writing on the ring are elvish 'runes'. tengwar looks so pretty and its fun to write with too. my friends are always askingme to write things in tengwar for them. when you get all of the letters in tengwar, try doing them in other modes. its fun to experiment with tengwar.

amanye tenceli

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Sulrunya Olaramainen
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I've been trying to memorize all this stuff and then I come across Imbëar's post and my eyes poped out of my head [] I'm glad that someone has had better luck than me!
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Snöwdog
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quote:
1 = t / 2 = p / 3 = ch / 4 = k
5 = d / 6 = b / 7 = j / 8 = g
9 = th / 10 = f / 11 = sh / ch
12 = dh / 13 = v / 14 = zh / 15 = gh

17 = m / 18 = n
21 = r (untrilled) / 22 = w / 23 = y

----------

25 = r (trilled) / 26 = rh / 27 = l / 28 = lh
29 = s / 30 = s / 31 = z / 32 = z
33 = h / 34 = (h)w / 35 = y / 36 = w

(The numbers refer to the table in Appendix E)

Wow... looking at Eol's original post I had flashbacks to 1975-76 and working on learning this from Appendix E. Used some of it in my Dungeons & Dragons game days a few years later. Unfortunately what was once known has been lost. Maybe I'll give it some thought again one day.
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