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Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » What if, concerning Saruman (Page 2)
Author Topic: What if, concerning Saruman
The Flammifer
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Aiwrendel: So I’ll agree Gandalf fought all of the Nine in the broken ring of Amon Sûl. I always had that feeling but found text that may have suggested otherwise.
--- I would love a textual quote here! [of the possibility that Gandalf fought less than all of the Nine on Weathertop]--
Aiwrendel: I gave one earlier. []
I don’t see any earlier textual suggestive evidence, but will give some myself:
quote:
’At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. It was impossible to find you Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off… (-Council of Elrond, my emphasis)
-Textual evidence that Gandalf held off ALL Nine at Weathertop!

Aiwrendel: Strider laid his hand on [Frodo's] shoulder. 'There is still hope,' he said. 'You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defense here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.'
The Nine were altered and corrupted in Mordor, a land of fire and brimstone. The Five Nazgul had no qualms about approaching the campfire in the dell below Amon Sul. The Nine fought the Fire of Gandalf for many hours atop Weathertop. If they had a fear of fire THIS would be the place and person to stay away from – A servant of the Secret Fire and the wielder of the Flame of Anor. The Witch-king had no qualms about landing on the Pelennor, which was all aflame. Yes, they preferred to skulk around in the dark, but I find no evidence as to why Aragorn would think they were afraid of fire. [] Now their horses – yes! (see below)

Aiwrendel: They were afraid of a rushing torrent of water. The Nazgûl weren’t stupid. They knew the flood would wash them away thus be“unmasked, and so made for a while less dangerous”
quote:
Suddenly the foremost Rider [Nazgul] spurred his horse forward. It checked at the water and reared up. -Flight to the Ford (my emphasis)
It appears the HORSE was fearful of water, not necessarily the Nazgul.
quote:
The three Riders that were still in the midst of the Ford were overwhelmed: (ibid)
Three horses had been urged into the river?
quote:
With his last failing senses frodo . . . [saw] shadowy forms waving flames . . . The black horses were filled with madness, and leaping forward in terror they bore their riders into the rushing flood. (ibid, my emphasis)
It seems the horses were fearful of the water, and of the flames as is indicative of horses. The Nazgul fearful of water? Yes it IS mentioned, but how on Middle-earth did they traverse the many streams and rivers of their hundreds of miles of travel? Even Tolkien mentions that it is an impossible idea to sustain (Letters, I haven’t looked up recently, sorry.) []

In summary: If the Nazgul were afraid of Fire and Water we need only attempt to find their fear of Air and Earth to cover ALL the basic elements – Earth, Air, Fire and Water. (Jest! I jest!) [] []

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Although, this does not imply that the Nine attacked Gandalf at Weathertop, they all made for him later. Also, Gandalf did not exactly fight or try to defeat the Nine he just made for Rivendell as quick as his horse could gallop. Run, Gandalf, run!
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gollum Gollum
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No one knows how exactly the Nazgûls' 'fear of water' worked... Not even JRRT himself []

From: UT, part III 'The Third Age', chapter IV 'The Hunt for the Ring', section I 'Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo'
quote:
He [Sauron] had these two additional objects: to capture or kill Gollum, or at least to deprive his enemies of him; and to force the passage of the bridge of Osgiliath, so that the Nazgûl could cross, while tesing the strength of Gondor.
And then comes a passage from CT:
quote:
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths' fear of water. In the account just cited it is made a chief motive in Sauron's assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in detailed notes on the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire: thus of the Rider . . . seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed it is said that 'he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement', and that the Nazgûl would not touch the 'Elvish' waters of Baranduin. But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only 'a dangerous ford formed by the ruines of the bridge'. My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.

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The Flammifer
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Hamfast:

Although, this does not imply that the Nine attacked Gandalf at Weathertop, they all made for him later.


I’m a little confused. What part of the following quote ‘implies’ that Gandalf fought less than all Nine?
quote:
At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. It was impossible to find you Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off… (Council of Elrond)
Also, Gandalf did not exactly fight or try to defeat the Nine he just made for Rivendell as quick as his horse could gallop. Run, Gandalf, run!
quote:
It was not dawn, for that was still some hours off. . . . ‘What is that light?” he said to Strider . . . (Flight to the Ford)
also
quote:
I [Gandalf] reached it [Weathertop] before sundown . . . and they were there before me. . . . But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top. . . (Council)
This tells us that Gandalf fought for “some hours” (perhaps all night until sunrise), and didn’t make “for Rivendell as quick as his horse could gallop”.

So the text tells us that Gandalf fought all Nine for many hours.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Well, just to clarify matters as I can be a bit thick, when are we saying that Gandalf fought all Nine, at Weathertop?
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Flammifer
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Yes Hamfast
The quote below which I have extended a bit makes it quite clear that Gandalf fought all Nine at Weathertop (adding from the previous paragraph: "I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, . . . and they were there before me."
quote:
[Gandalf]At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. It was impossible to find you Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off… Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back . . . and made for the Ford . . . That helped a little, for these were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.
-Council of Elrond

ps If you're concerned as to when Gandalf reached Weathertop (or when the fight took place) it was 'before sundown' on Oct. 3, and he escaped at sunrise Oct. 4. So the combat could have lasted as much as 10-12 hours; but that's speculation - we just don't know exactly how long the fight lasted from the information given.

[ 08-25-2015, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: The Flammifer ]

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