Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2 
Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » What if, concerning Saruman (Page 1)
Author Topic: What if, concerning Saruman
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, what if Saruman didn't reveal his true intentions towards the Ring to Gandalf when he did rather he restrained himself. Gandalf still thinks of Saruman as an ally. Now in the journey after Rivendell, would Gandalf have considered going to Isengard in the same way as he did his other allies of Rivendell or Lorien? And if he did what might have been the consequences?
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fangorn
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4070

posted      Profile for Fangorn   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
can a Istari be deceived so easily? Can Gandalf not read Sarumans intentions, whatever his words are?
From: Bangalore | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Numenorean Sword Trainer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11359
posted      Profile for Numenorean Sword Trainer   Email Numenorean Sword Trainer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
"Ok, what if Saruman didn't reveal his true intentions towards the Ring to Gandalf when he did rather he restrained himself."


He was taking orders from Sauron, he couldn't hide that very easily.

[ 06-05-2012, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Numenorean Sword Trainer ]

From: The Island Previously Known as Numenor | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well, Saruman was more taking what orders suited him from Mordor. He never could make up his mind if he was a double or triple traitor! Mind, I'm not sure that Gandalf really trusted him in the same way as he did say Elrond or Galadriel. Perhaps he harboured resentment towards Saruman after Saruman not attacking Dol Guldor when Gandalf first found out the true nature of the Necromancer.
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aiwrendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 965

posted      Profile for Aiwrendel   Author's Homepage   Email Aiwrendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think it likely Gandalf would have taken the Ring near Isengard in any case. But if Gandalf had agreed with Boromir and convinced Arargorn (good luck with that) to take the Company near Isengard Saruman would have certainly captured the Ring. The consequences would have been disastrous: Sauron would have immediately known he had the Ring and would have descended on Isingard like a storm. Sauron would have captured the Ring.
From: Chicago USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Numenorean Sword Trainer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11359
posted      Profile for Numenorean Sword Trainer   Email Numenorean Sword Trainer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Saruman couldn't fool Gandalf.
From: The Island Previously Known as Numenor | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Sherriff
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 5427
posted      Profile for The Sherriff   Edit/Delete Post 
People have a high regard for Gandalf if we think he could out-wit the white wizard. Curious though. The sumation of all colors is white.

It seems Gandalf didn't smell anything odd coming from under the ground. Or hear the smiths. Saruman was pretty clever, insane or not.

From: The Shire | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Numenorean Sword Trainer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11359
posted      Profile for Numenorean Sword Trainer   Email Numenorean Sword Trainer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Saruman no longer wore white, if you recall. And Gandalf noted that Saruman was preparing for war, replacing his orchards with smithies and armies; but this was no surprise, since war was at hand.

Meanwhile Gandalf never lied, so he was not easily fooled by those who did.

From: The Island Previously Known as Numenor | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
posted      Profile for Thorin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Gandalf had doubts about Saruman long before his betrayal was revealed. He admitted to Frodo that something held him back from asking Sarumna about Bilbo's ring when he wasn't sure what, exactly, it was. He also taunted Saruman with smoke rings. Gandalf would not have taken the Ring anywhere close to Isengard.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Gandalf did trust Saruman enough to go to Isengard, however.
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aiwrendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 965

posted      Profile for Aiwrendel   Author's Homepage   Email Aiwrendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Gandalf still (mostly) trusted Saruman when Radagast gave him the message that he would get help if he felt the need. Gandalf knew he was in great need of help: He knew he alone didn’t have the power to withstand all of the Nine together let alone Sauron. He even knew he wasn’t as powerful as Saruman. (Quotes available on request. Or, re-read The Council of Elrond. [] )

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Saruman "...concealed his mind and deceived his messenger [Radagast]" so why couldn’t he do the same with Gandalf? He didn’t even try. He openly wore the ring he had made and scoffed at Gandalf and verbally scorned Radagast. Did he know he couldn’t hide his thoughts from Gandalf; hide the "white light" in his eyes that revealed "a cold laughter [that] was in his heart"? Gandalf was very perceptive: When he entered Isengard he suddenly felt afraid though knew no reason for it when the gates closed silently behind him.

He didn’t try because his plan from the beginning was to capture Gandalf.
quote:
For you have come, and that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay and rest from journeys.
Was that his original plan because he knew he couldn’t fool Gandalf? Was he also convinced beforehand that Gandalf wouldn't join him?

[ 08-26-2012, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Aiwrendel ]

From: Chicago USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Probably, but he might have thought Gandalf would have done. Maybe he thought that if offered the chance, Gandalf would go for power just like Saruman. As Gandalf later said, Saruman didn't understand him very well! Then again I think it possible that secretly Gandalf still resented Saruman for vetoing the first attack on Dol Guldor. Which was why he didn't tell Saruman about the Ring in the first place. Then again, had the fellowship passed Isengard and say Gandalf hadn't been betrayed, it might have been very tempting to call on the White wizard for aid. After all he took the risk with Galadriel
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aiwrendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 965

posted      Profile for Aiwrendel   Author's Homepage   Email Aiwrendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I wouldn’t consider telling Galadriel (or Elrond) about the Ring a “risk”. They had never given Gandalf the slightest indication that their attitudes had changed. I think the bearers of the Three would know better than anyone the impossibility of controlling the One without succumbing to its evil. The Three were made for creation and preservation while the One was made for destruction and domination.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

It could have been resentment that Gandalf felt or the memory of the first hint of mistrust when the head of the White Council delayed the attack on Dol Gurdor. The next clue was when Saruman was proven wrong about the One being lost forever. I don’t think bitterness was in Gandalf’s thoughts as much as caution.
quote:
In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

All of this is quite off subject. If Gandalf had brought the Fellowship and the Ring to Isengard and if Saruman had taken the Ring and if Gandalf had joined him to dominate Middle Earth and if he had given his loyal minion (Gandalf) a ring of his own making and if they had defeated Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan, Radagast, Aragorn, Denethor, Dain, . . . Things would have been no different than if Sauron had regained the One.

*whew* That’s a lot of if’n 'n and’n.

From: Chicago USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Numenorean Sword Trainer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11359
posted      Profile for Numenorean Sword Trainer   Email Numenorean Sword Trainer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think so, since Divine Intervention was at work when Gandalf was sent back by Eru. If Gandalf got a do-over, then who says he only gets one, and nobody else gets any? It's like any time-travel plot, like in Star Trek: Generations, Harry Potter Prisoner/Azkaban etc., where no matter what happens they can just go back and fix it.
From: The Island Previously Known as Numenor | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Galadriel was surely tempted by the Ring, however.
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Flammifer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11407
posted      Profile for The Flammifer   Email The Flammifer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Aiwrendel- Gandalf still (mostly) trusted Saruman when Radagast gave him the message that he would get help if he felt the need. Gandalf knew he was in great need of help: He knew he alone didn’t have the power to withstand all of the Nine together let alone Sauron.
Correct: Saruman the White at that time WAS more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. But Gandalf DID have the power to withstand all Nine and did atop Amon Sul.

Cheers [] [] []

From: East Bight | Registered: Jun 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Only temporarily, though. Gandalf fled to Rivendell pretty swift after.
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Flammifer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11407
posted      Profile for The Flammifer   Email The Flammifer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Not sure what you mean by “temporarily”?
quote:
Frodo lay down again, but for a long while he could still see the white flashes. . .
It appears from this passage that Gandalf fought off the Nine longer than temporarily. A simple point of semantics I suppose.

And “fled to Rivendell pretty swift thereafter” is incorrect IMO. He was attacked on Oct. 3rd and didn’t reach Rivendell till Oct. 18th. Two weeks is more than pretty swift.

Anyhow, the purpose was served, and the Nine were split into two groups as four were chasing Gandalf only five were left to attack the travelers.

From: East Bight | Registered: Jun 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Then again, one could argue that the Nine were distracted by their hunt for the Ring as well. I'm not sure who would win a fight between Gandalf the Grey and the Ringwraiths!
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aiwrendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 965

posted      Profile for Aiwrendel   Author's Homepage   Email Aiwrendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
There are three points I want to make. Please forgive the length of this post.

1. Gandalf could not defeat all of the Nine at once.
2. Gandalf could hold back many, or maybe all, of the Nine at the same time but the best he could manage was a stalemate: He couldn’t even destroy one of them during the battle on Amon Sûl.
3. Gandalf fought some if not all of the Nine on Amon Sûl for many hours. Perhaps all night which was over 12 hours long in early October.

Gandalf couldn't win against all the Nine together. He wasn't even sure if he could win against the Lord of the Nazgûl alone:
quote:
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor ... 'Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him. '

quote:
...they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed.
In the many times I’ve re-read The Council of Elrond I still can’t determine how many Nazgûl attacked Gandalf on Amon Sûl. Some statements Gandalf made suggest all of the Nine and others less.
quote:
Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree, while two rode ahead through the village, and four more invaded the Shire. But when these were foiled in Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings, and so left the Road unguarded for a while, except by their spies. The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.
quote:
'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me. '
How many were before him? Those who didn’t ride “eastward straight across country?”

This next statement suggests all of the Nine attacked Gandalf and he held them off possibly all night:
quote:
...they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed. At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.

From: Chicago USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Flammifer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11407
posted      Profile for The Flammifer   Email The Flammifer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
No quotes. Just some quick thoughts.
You seem, in your post to question whether Gandalf fought all Nine on Weathertop.
It makes chronological sense, and Gandalf says he did so himself in your quote: with all the Nine at my heels. No reason to lie; the statement stands alone. I find no statements that suggest Gandalf fought less than The Nine. (Back to the timeline and his statement.)

We can’t expect every time Tolkien uses the word “they” to insert the word “Nine”. This all seems logical and concrete. He fought ALL Nine! You’re right, he didn’t win (or lose), but this battle had a very important result – the fortunate splitting of The Nine.

Denethor’s statement you had a foe to match you is just that – Denethor’s statement (perhaps hyperbole?). (Gandalf gave an obtuse answer which we can interpret as we wish.)

Also we know that Aragorn fought, and drove off, Five (basically alone). (Does this not give more credence to Gandalf’s fighting to a draw all Nine?)

We also know that Aragorn and Glorfindel held off all Nine at the Ford of Rivendell. (Yes, we could, in part, attribute this victory to a ‘horse problem’ and to the flood if we wish.)

Perhaps the Nazgul were not as physically powerful as we imagine, and much of their power comes from fear and some long-learned paranormal magic, i.e. Frodo’s tongue cleaving to his mouth and his sword falling broken, at the Ford.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Faithless Is He Who Says Farewell When The Road Darkens"
It's much more difficult to sneak off in daylight!

From: East Bight | Registered: Jun 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aiwrendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 965

posted      Profile for Aiwrendel   Author's Homepage   Email Aiwrendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Arargorn gave a reason why he was able to “drive off” the five Nazgûl and why they didn’t return that night: They were afraid of fire and thought their work was mostly done having wounded the Ring bearer with the Morgul knife. They had only to wait until its full effects subdued Frodo.

Glorfindel and Aragorn didn’t hold off the Nine at the Ford. Their “attack” dismayed them and drove their horses to madness as you mentioned. I doubt the Nazgûl would have cast themselves into the flood had they been on foot. However, they might have done anything rather than face the wrath of the Elf-lord Glorfindel.

The Nine not physically powerful? Powerful enough to swing a mace and shatter a shield and the arm that held it. [] But their main power was the fear that came before them. Most of the accounts of them influencing others were due to the fear they instilled.

So I’ll agree Gandalf fought all of the Nine in the broken ring of Amon Sûl. I always had that feeling but found text that may have suggested otherwise.

Well. We sure went off topic. []
What of Saruman?

From: Chicago USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Snöwdog
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 15

posted      Profile for Snöwdog   Author's Homepage   Email Snöwdog   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Gamfast Hamgee said:
"Ok, what if Saruman didn't reveal his true intentions towards the Ring to Gandalf when he did rather he restrained himself. Gandalf still thinks of Saruman as an ally. Now in the journey after Rivendell, would Gandalf have considered going to Isengard in the same way as he did his other allies of Rivendell or Lorien? And if he did what might have been the consequences?"

Had Saruman managed to conceal his deceit from Gandalf, and Gandalf walked out of Isengard and headed north in haste all the while considering Saruman still on the side of good, then maybe Saruman could have sprung a trap on them should they have chosen to head east via the southern route through the Gap of Isen. The consequences would be the fellowship be welcomed into Isengard and be captured and the Ring would have been Saruman's.
From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Flammifer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11407
posted      Profile for The Flammifer   Email The Flammifer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Aiwrendel,

quote:
Arargorn gave a reason why he was able to “drive off” the five Nazgûl and why they didn’t return that night: They were afraid of fire and thought their work was mostly done having wounded the Ring bearer with the Morgul knife. They had only to wait until its full effects subdued Frodo.
Afraid of fire? (Quote please.) Yes, Aragorn attacked them with a fire-brand in each hand. Now they’re afraid of water and fire.. Hmm – what else are these cowards afraid of? Here’s a quote from Aragorn: I cannot think why they have gone and do not attack again.”
Why would they ‘wait’ for the full effects of the morgul-blade to do its work? They would STILL have to overpower Aragorn. Nothing would be changed except Frodo would be doubly guarded. They had their chance but were driven off by Aragorn!
quote:
Glorfindel and Aragorn didn’t hold off the Nine at the Ford. Their “attack” dismayed them and drove their horses to madness as you mentioned. I doubt the Nazgûl would have cast themselves into the flood had they been on foot. However, they might have done anything rather than face the wrath of the Elf-lord Glorfindel.
Two drove Nine powerful beings mounted on nine powerful horses into the Loudwater. A significant defeat for the Nine I would say.
quote:
The Nine not physically powerful? Powerful enough to swing a mace and shatter a shield and the arm that held it. But their main power was the fear that came before them. Most of the accounts of them influencing others were due to the fear they instilled.
Yes, here is a singular account (besides Frodo’s stabbing) of a physical action of a Nazgul. Both these ‘blows’ were by the Witch-king himself.
quote:
So I’ll agree Gandalf fought all of the Nine in the broken ring of Amon Sûl. I always had that feeling but found text that may have suggested otherwise.
I would love a textual quote here!

Cheers

From: East Bight | Registered: Jun 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aiwrendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 965

posted      Profile for Aiwrendel   Author's Homepage   Email Aiwrendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
--- [Nazgûl] Afraid of fire? (Quote please.) ---
quote:
Strider laid his hand on [Frodo's] shoulder. 'There is still hope,' he said. 'You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defense here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.'
--- Now they’re afraid of water...? ---
They were afraid of a rushing torrent of water. The Nazgûl weren’t stupid. They knew the flood would wash them away thus be “unmasked, and so made for a while less dangerous”

--- A significant defeat for the Nine I would say. ---
Indeed! What evil being in ME wouldn’t run "seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath" charging at them?

--- I would love a textual quote here! [of the possibility that Gandalf fought less than all of the Nine on Weathertop]---
I gave one earlier.

[ 12-20-2014, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Aiwrendel ]

From: Chicago USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » What if, concerning Saruman (Page 1)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1