posted
At the end of Fellowship, everyone goes running off into the woods in different directions, and Aragorn can't do a thing to stop them. How could he possibly rule a nation as a king, if he can't even rule his own Fellowship?
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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Well Aragorn did have a little more growth to do as a character before becoming king, and correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while), but weren't the hobbits all gone before Aragorn really had a chance to do anything about it?
From: Florida, the Flower of the US | Registered: Mar 2005
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Aragorn had been in battle for 60 years, it's hard to believe he had no experience as a commander; in fact he was able to supersede Denethor's advice to Ecthelion, which was why Denethor hated Aragorn.
It's also hard to accept that he could be the same Aragorn who showed the power and rulership he did to Sauron in the palantir, or to the Army of the Dead at the Black Stone or the Pelargir; if he could bend even the shades of men to his will, why not a few hobbits, and Elf and a Dwarf that he had been with for months? Did he teach them nothing, as second-in-command of the Fellowship, or his time as the leader? Even Boromir implied that he was willing to yield to Aragorn in using the Ring, but the others ran off like they had never been in training a day. That scene just struck me as a bit unusual in that regard, like a deus ex machina to break the Fellowship.
[ 12-14-2010, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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True, but near the end Aragorn does give them all a choice before Boromir scared Frodo off in his brief delirium.
quote:'What shall now become of our Company that has travelled so far in fellowship? Shall we turn west with Boromir and go to the wars of Gondor; or turn east to the Fear and Shadow; or shall we break our fellowship and go this way and that as each may choose?'
-The Breaking of the Fellowship
If there was a Dues Ex factor to it, I think it would be Boromir's sneaking off to "console" Frodo while the others waited too long for him, thinking he was still calmly making his decision. When Boromir came back and admitted Frodo had vanished, there probably wasn't any stopping the other three hobbits:
quote: It was no good. They took no notice of [Aragorn]. Sam had dashed off first. Merry and Pippin had followed, and were already disappearing westward in the trees by the shore...A sudden panic or madness seemed to have fallen on the Company.
Again, I don't think there was much Aragorn could do- the three who ran off happened to be the three least likely to favor their duty to the Fellowship above their loyalty to Frodo. Boromir's brief moment of weakness sent things spiraling out of control, and Aragorn simply couldn't get things under control before the Orcs/Uruks attacked, even though he knew they were coming.
Edit: I guess you could say it was a Dues Ex Machina complimentary of The One. It does like causing trouble.
[ 12-14-2010, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Vahndel ]
From: Florida, the Flower of the US | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: That scene just struck me as a bit unusual in that regard, like a deus ex machina to break the Fellowship.
Not sure the use of the deus ex machina really applies here. It's not like Tolkien painted himself into a corner, this was a designed crossroads for the Fellowship, it didn't strike me as a bailout. It was destined to break up at this point anyway, the only real question was what the split would look like.
Frodo was going to Mordor, and of course Sam wouldn't be left behind. Boromir was headed for Minas Tirith, along with Aragorn most likely. The other four were a bit of a question mark I guess. The orcs abducting the hobbits doesn't really come out of nowhere, the Fellowship was being tracked and harassed regularly and for Saruman/Sauron to make this attempt to capture the hobbits and thereby the Ring makes sense. Also Boromir's weakness had been foreshadowed for some time, for it to surface when the split was imminent also makes sense. It's just alot of moving parts and subplots colliding, not necessarily an act of God or the like.
As for Aragorn's leadership or lack thereof, the situation was rather chaotic, not sure there was much he could do, tho' he got it together once the fighting started. He was having a bit of a weak moment tho' prior to the orc attack in that he was conflicted about the decision to split the Fellowship. He knew the time had come but seemed apprehensive about making the tough choice. Does that makes him a bad leader or just a good leader who had a bad moment?
posted
I think Aragorn here was a little divided between his head telling him to go with Frodo which he had promised or to help his people in Gondor and Rohan who equally needed it, so that was why he was a bit indecisive at this point. At this time he hadn't worked out, or events hadn't gotton to the point were he realized that he could do both at once!
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006
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I wonder... could it have been Sauron and Saruman's influence? The notion that "a madness or a panic had taken over the party" seems a direct statement, which might apply to the hobbits-- but not to Legolas or Gimli, who were seasoned warriors.
The orcs were nearby, and they were approaching; Sauron and Saruman's orcs were always under their influence, which gave them strength and direction-- while without it, they were witless and suicidal. For example on the way to Isengard, Saruman's power made the orcs stronger while it made Aragorn's party weaker; meanwhile Sauron could empower his mininons, and when he was destroyed then they went crazy without direction-- and that's exactly what came over the Company at that moment.
As for Tolkien "not writing himself into a corner," here I disagree. After Boromir died, Aragorn said that he was initially going to follow Frodo to Mordor, if Frodo chose that path; so clearly Tolkien needed some outside circumstance to force Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith instead-- and do so via the Paths of the Dead. And of course we saw how that played out neatly, by the party going crazy, Boromir getting killed, and the orcs carrying Merry and Pippin to Rohan, forcing Aragorn to follow.
So what would have happened if Aragorn had kept the party together when the orcs attacked? Frodo was already gone, so he'd be off on his own; but Aragorn could have tracked him easily enough. Likewise the orcs attacked their camp, so the seven would be forced to face them together, with either them or the orcs being killed.
And so, the "panic or madness" solved that, by separating the Company so that all the events could ensue.
[ 12-15-2010, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Aragorn acknowledges that his leadership was flawed by saying "All that I have done today has gone amiss!" I think that takes leadership to say that. He also takes control of the situation after and attempts to rectify the mayhem he finds himself in. Legolas and Gimli did not challenge him for authority in any case. They are very influential identities in their local communities, especially Legolas.
Registered: Jul 2011
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Sometimes good leaders have no control over their circumstances. While I agree with Vahndel's statement last year that Aragorn still had some growth to experience, I think the situation was interminable.
The Fellowship's purpose was to bring about a fundamental change in the politics and "nature" of Middle-earth. It was a world-changing mission, and Aragorn had no real authority over the individual members of the group. He was the group's leader but he could not compel the group to do anything against their wishes.
He was also trying to devise a strategy that had some hope of working. He had already been to the borders of Mordor (probably more than once) and knew well their defences and protections. Taking 8 people into that kind of environment is much riskier than taking 3, so I am sure Tolkien was implying that Aragorn was trying to think of the best plan of action.
Of course, Legolas and Gimli had no purpose in the South except to aid the journey of the Ring to Mount Doom -- hence their objections to Aragorn's choice to send them on to Minas Tirith with Boromir. Merry and Pippin were also committed to Frodo, but they would have been exposed to even graver perils in Mordor than they were in Rohan and Minas Tirith. I can see Aragorn not wanting to lead them across the river.
So Aragorn's feelings for his companions, and his strategic point of view, were at cross-purposes with the feelings of the other members of the Fellowship. Only Boromir was committed to going all the way to Minas Tirith -- and by the time they had reached Parth Galen, of course, he was on the verge of succumbing to the Ring's temptation.
I think that if Tolkien had not written the story so that Boromir fell to the Ring's power, he would have had the entire Fellowship cross the river and probably meet some disaster there. The Ring was working against the Fellowship's purpose and I suspect that Tolkien was subtly suggesting that part of the problem for Aragorn was that the Ring was simply so dangerous, so evil, and so capable of wreaking mischief among its "protectors" that he would have felt the need to pare the party down.
Technically, I have always felt that Aragorn had already faced down the Ring's temptation in Bree and that therefore he had made his choice. But really had he crossed the River with Sam and Frodo the Ring could have turned its power against him and maybe in the end it would have been Aragorn who "ratted out" and gave in. Frodo didn't claim the Ring because he desired it -- he claimed the Ring because it mounted a last-minute all-out mental attack on him after having worn him down mentally and emotionally for months.
Imagine what Aragorn might have done to Frodo and Sam if the Ring had been working on HIM instead.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.
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