posted
"Butterbur did not let them stay there for free."
Sure he did. Butterbur counted Gandalf as a wise, traveled, likely powerful person and a friend. He would have let the hobbits stay out of respect and friendship.
From: seattle, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I can't believe anyone would think that Butterbur would charge Frodo after everything else that happened. To begin with, Butterbur paid the party 30 silver pennies for the loss of their ponies, as well as to buy Bill the pony for them. Likewise, Butterbur was trying to help the party against Mordor, giving them protection and provisions for the journey-- and so it's rather silly to then think he's going to charge them?
When Frodo vanished from the Ring, Butterbur initially says "he's free to go where he wants, as long as he pays in the morning." However after his conversation with Aragorn regarding the Nazgul, and the letter from Gandalf etc, he says that he's more willing than ever to help.
As Gandalf said, Barley wasn't stupid, as Frodo thought him; he had to keep all the customers' tabs in his head, after all, and he "could see through a brick wall in time," and knew that this was important. As for Gandalf, he would be a welcome guest at Barley's as he would be at Frodo's or anywhere else, being known far and wide as a valuable friend and ally-- which wouldn't be treated lightly in those times; even after Wormtongue poisoned Theoden's mind against Gandalf, Theoden still gave him a free horse, while Denethor also recognized his aid and welcomed it.
[ 12-22-2010, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I'm reasonably certain that Tolkien did not write his work as an Agronomist, Geologist, Economist or Home Economist. Such considerations may or may not have featured in his thoughts, being concerned with character and story development as Tolkien was.
What's nice is how much effort his readership invests in such proasic matters. I'm not sure what Tolkien would have made of it, but I find it a quaint form of Tolkien reverence.
From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Gandalf in the Hobbit did say that he would find his share of the treasure 'useful!' so one presumes that he would have found some need for monetary transactions. Counter-bribing Bill Ferny if necessary for example possibly.
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006
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The medieval setting of the story takes after hospitality among the gentry, and Gandalf was clearly a welcome guest wherever he went, and obviously no stranger to forcing his welcome: look what he did to Bilbo, and Beorn alike, turning even wary strangers into throwing full-out dinner-parties for him-- for which they even thanked him with everlasting friendship. Again, these were feudal setting, in which travellers seemed to be welcome in most homes; in Bree, Sam even recommends asking some local hobbits to accomodate them-- thus indicating that this would be common practice among hobbits.
It's rather silly to think that Tolkien wouldn't know the meaning of money in a free economy; however he took care to distinguish it from the Christian principle of "mammon--" by which the House of Durin was destroyed via its dotage on gold (a clear reference to the House of Judah)-- vs. actual stewardship, since the Seven Rings made them more stubborn in their use of it: most likely hoarding in a manner what was penny-wise and pound-foolish, preferring gold itself over produtive wealth-- and likewise lending it only at high usury.
The Shire was not a feudal aristocracy, however since land could be bought and sold (as proven by Lotho's purchasing land with Saruman's money, which was what allowed Saruman to take over); clearly, this is why Tolkien stressed the Scouring as a vital point of the story: i.e. to show the importance of controlling land as a political autonomy and preventing peacetime-conquests through land-division. Here, a foreign invader was able to invade without notice, via purchasing land through a puppet-governor (Lotho), and then bringing in outside agents under that pretext; and thus he was able to take over from the inside. If Saruman had tried invading without such land-purchase, the Shire would have been raised over these trespasses, and Saruman's men would have found themselves meeting full resistance from the start. (This was the model of many conquests, from ancient times to Soviet-bloc client-states).
Another example is the agitator at the Pony, obviously Saruman's agent, who was arguing for "squatter's rights" for refugees in th Bree-lands. Clearly Tolkien saw this as a dilution of national homogeneity, and hence a weakening of the state's sovereign integrity, leaving it vulnerable.
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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On a complete aside, I find it remarkably silly that White Hand is giving us instruction in what is silly.
From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This was the model of many conquests, from ancient times to Soviet-bloc client-states --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many that would argue it's still occuring today.
No, they don't have that kind of muscle anymore. The empires of the 20th-century world are collapsing, and it's a good idea to prepare for the coming decline. That's not doomsaying, just sooth.
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This was the model of many conquests, from ancient times to Soviet-bloc client-states ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are many that would argue it's still occuring today. --------------------------------------------------------------------- No, they don't have that kind of muscle anymore.
I meant that in a more general sense. These days that type of paranoia is definitely in play in regards to Muslims.
From: northern hemisphere-ish | Registered: Jan 2003
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Muslims never had any muscle to begin with... not for about 1000 years anyway; their politic was doomed from the start, chiefly because it tolerates suicide-bombings and other ruthless violence as a legitimate form of political expression, not even for conquest. Their power today, only comes from Western addiction to oil, and their resistance to Western politicians who meddle in their domestic affairs in order to to steal it by conspiring with Islamic dictators at the expense of Muslim blood; otherwise without oil in the bargain, politicians' concern about Israel's "rights" would suddenly vanish. A shrewd lawyer could make things worse, by demanding habeas corpus exemption for all non-Muslims; then you'd see things really hit the fan.
[ 01-02-2011, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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Whether the fear is valid or not doesn't change the fact that it exists. If you don't think there's a growing segment of the population concerned about Muslims "moving in to our nieghborhoods" "taking over from the inside" or "putting a mosque on every corner" then you really need to get out of the house more often. And having a president with the middle name 'Hussien' only adds fuel to the fire.
From: northern hemisphere-ish | Registered: Jan 2003
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I always thought that Gandalf made money on the side - a "wandering conjurer" healing your goats, putting a word on a cradle to keep a baby safe, etc. could probably ask for (and get) some good money.
As for Strider, I figured that he had some kind of money in Rivendell that he could pick up if necessary. Arathorn's son and Elrond's relative ought to be able to get some pocket money!
What's always niggled at my mind was when Pippin asks about the inns in Minas Tirith - what money did he have to buy anything, especially after getting kidnapped by orcs?
From: Wisconsin | Registered: Jul 2002
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The orcs weren't allowed to search the hobbits if you recall, but I'm sure that Denethor handled accomodations just fine even before Pippin was sworn into service. Again, Gandalf had no problem inviting himself to be a guest wherever he liked, even at Beorn's; smart people realized the importance of his business, while no one could be stupid enough to refuse him.
From: Memphis | Registered: Nov 2010
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