Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
 
Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » The Tolkien Eowyn...
Author Topic: The Tolkien Eowyn...
Rómenya
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2589

posted      Profile for Rómenya   Author's Homepage   Email Rómenya   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I was thinking the other day about Eowyn and the Witch King...

"Is it just me, or do you think that Tolkien downplayed Eowyn slaying the WK?"

Like, there was no celebration or songs mentioned about her and all that is said is Aragorn heals her and she falls in love with Faramir.

Didn't she get any glory or honor? Without her, there might have been a whole different ending to the story...such as Faramir the bachelor... []

Just my two or three cents...

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose

My dreams are my reality...


From: In the shadow of the day | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bungo
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 278

posted      Profile for Bungo   Email Bungo   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I totally agree with you!

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I do believe in faëries. I do. I do.

From: Kowloon, Hong Kong | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

posted      Profile for Neytari Took-Baggins   Author's Homepage   Email Neytari Took-Baggins   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Well, that's how women throughout history have been treated after doing great feats, isn't it? Maybe Tolkien was being realistic?
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Roccowen Eilonwyiel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3727

posted      Profile for Roccowen Eilonwyiel   Author's Homepage   Email Roccowen Eilonwyiel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
It's strange since Aragorn did admire her. You might think that he would praise her.
From: waiting in a hall, watching a silhouetted figure through a doorway | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thingol of Doriath
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2718

posted      Profile for Thingol of Doriath   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
In the large scope of things, her slaying of the Witchking is overshadowed by greater events: Frodo's destruction of the Ring and Aragorn's return.

However, there is truth in what you say... it is downplayed. Aragorn praises Imrahil and Éomer much more after the war than Éowyn, even though her contribution was greater than theirs combined. Instead Aragorn is more concerned with her health and happiness.

From: Sverige! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bobomir
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3911

posted      Profile for Bobomir   Email Bobomir   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Aragorn praises Imrahil and Éomer much more after the war than Éowyn
That's the odd part, not the total lack of praise. Possibly they didn't want to draw attention to the fact that a woman was in battle?

[ 12-03-2003, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Bobomir ]

From: Osgiliath | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
posted      Profile for Thorin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I agree - I think that Eowyn's act was just overshadowed. Aragorn calls her "sterner than steel" while Gandalf says that Merry "should have been borne in honour into this city." So the act of killing the Witch-king was certainly recognized as an act of great importance, but with the destruction of the Ring it turned out to be almost a moot point.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

posted      Profile for Sauron's Secret Agent   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
It may have turned out to be a moot point, Thorin, but they didn't know that at the time. And in any case, surely Éowyn deserved her share of the praise and honour? No-one else could have done what she did.

It's just another case, imo, of Tolkien just not handling the female characters in LOTR at all well.

Anyway, I have to come and fight for my avi. don't I? []

Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thingol of Doriath
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2718

posted      Profile for Thingol of Doriath   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed.

Actually, I think Tolkien's greatest injustice to the character of Éowyn is when she refuses to go to the Field of Cormallen... because she is still lovesick over Aragorn. Here is this strong woman who disobeyed her king, rode hundreds of miles in disguise and slayed the dreaded Witchking... only to be paralyzed by unrequited love. []

From: Sverige! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 371
posted      Profile for cian   Edit/Delete Post 
'For it is said in the songs of the Mark ...'

It seems that there were songs in praise of Éowyn's great deed; and it was noted (Appendix A) that in that day Éowyn won renown (as also Éomer), and was known after in the Mark as The Lady of the Shield-arm

I would give much to hear even one song, in the tongue of her people, about that Lady!

[]

Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lord Mithrandir
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 978

posted      Profile for Lord Mithrandir   Email Lord Mithrandir   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Singy that Eowyn would have gone to Field of Cormallen, and that her staying behind is quite an injustice.

Anyway, I've always thought that the Witch King was killed by the sword that Merry used against him. Merry's sword had a spell on it that made it able to slay the Witch King.
quote:
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cian
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 371
posted      Profile for cian   Edit/Delete Post 
Lord Mithrandir posted: "Anyway, I've always thought that the Witch King was killed by the sword that Merry used against him. Merry's sword had a spell on it that made it able to slay the Witch King."

I must disagree that Merry's sword killed the Witch-king []

'By her hand the Black Captain, the Lord of the Ring-wraiths, the Witch-king of Angmar, was destroyed.' ~Tale of Years of the Third Age, JRRT

[this version of the Tale of Years: '... was and remained for a long time the form of the Tale of Years that my father thought appropriate, and was indeed proposed to the publishers in 1954.' (Christopher Tolkien) Rayner Unwin however, thought this version too long on the whole, and JRRT ultimately agreed to his suggestions: ' ... considerable reduction be made in the accounts of events already told in The Lord of the Rings, and a somewhat staccato style be adopted (make less of a narrative of the events of the Third Age). Rayner Unwin]

'For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Éowyn had the aid of Théoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country, ...' ~ ROTK Appendix A

The principle 'deed-doer' is arguably Éowyn, as I read this, with great 'aid' from Merry yes. I also note the UT entry (though see the introductory details regarding these entries in UT in any case)

''Éowyn Sister of Éomer, wife of Faramir; slayer of the Lord of the Nazgûl in the battle of the Pelennor Fields. 364' ~Unfinished Tales

Interestingly perhaps, at one point during the draft writing for LOTR: 'It is obvious that no part was forseen for Merry in the great event; and it seems that (in strong contrast to the final story, RK p. 117) it was the beheading of the great bird that in itself caused the defeat and flight of the Lord of the Nazgûl, deprived of his steed.' ~Christopher Tolkien

At one point Éowyn beheaded the 'bird's head'; and in another draft note, for example: 'Théoden and Éowyn destroy Nazgûl and Théoden falls' (see 'The War of the Ring' for general details). Tolkien, IMO anyway, ultimately decided on a better 'confrontation scene', and though he decided that Éowyn get help in the 'new' scenario ... I would say the Prof yet had her deliver the 'killing blow'.

To my mind, the description as written in ROTK seems to call for Éowyn to certainly do something here: she struggles up after her name is called out, and with her last strength! she drove her sword. Her sword broke -- indeed that something is to deliver the 'slaying' blow!

I also note the reaction of the Witch-king after each strike as well: a cry of 'bitter pain' after Merry's strike ... after Éowyn's, a cry went up, faded to a shrill wailing, '... a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.'

~~~

I note too that Tolkien commented on a similar 'stab' in one of his letters, in fact he compared a hypothetical stroke to Merry's stab in ROTK; note how he describes it (Tolkien is here responding to a proposed film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings):

'There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:* the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.).' ~JRRT

IMO the after the act digression need not mean much more than the barrow-dagger had an extra 'something' to it, the 'wound' to the Witch-king's leg rendering him tactically vulnerable at a crucial moment. Merry cries out: Éowyn! and she is tottering, struggling up, but yet the Wraith (seemingly) can't do anything to avoid or stop her 'lethal' strike. This seems to agree well enough with the blade breaking the spell that knit the Nazgûl-lord's will to his sinews.

As I see it, Merry's leg-wound was bitter indeed, especially aiding, as it did, Éowyn's deed of bringing him to nothing!

¤

Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Snöwdog
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 15

posted      Profile for Snöwdog   Author's Homepage   Email Snöwdog   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
This is a good analytical essay of Eowyn and how the films got her wrong.

“I am No Man” Doesn’t Cut It: The Story of Eowyn
By Mariah Huehner - 27 Jan 2015

There are many things I love about the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings film adaptations. The attention to detail, the shout outs to uber nerds with Silmarillion refs, the way Legolas jumps up on that horse in The Two Towers. There’s a lot to really admire given the scope of the world and the fact that a large part of the story is following different groups of people wandering around and talking. It takes skill to adapt a work that was clearly never intended for film and make it compelling visually without losing the core of the story. I’m thrilled the films exist and I’m glad that, obsessive geek though I am, it wasn’t me tasked with making that come alive. I doubt very much I could have let go enough of my own feelings about it to do it proper justice.

Still, no adaptation of a work so beloved by so many can possibly match every person’s interpretation or expectation of it. And it would be unreasonable to expect it to. That said, there are some things I feel like the writers stumbled on and Eowyn is one of the big ones.

(Important note: Your personal mileage may vary widely on this sort of thing and if you loved movie Eowyn I am NOT trying to convince you otherwise. Stories are wonderful, powerful things, just like your personal reactions to them. Love what you love and never apologize for it!)

It says something to me that a WWI vet from a devout Catholic background wrote about a warrior woman in a book published in 1954 that was more feminist than her modern interpretation ended up being.

I know what you’re thinking. “But Eowyn kicked ass! She swung a sword and she fought the Lord of the Nazgûl! She said “I am no man!”

Yeah, I know. And look, I’d really like to tell you that that’s enough for me. But it isn’t. Let me explain why.

irst, we need to go to the books. Eowyn in the books is a very cold, very unhappy, character. She’s been relegated to nurse maid to a sick uncle while her brother gets to go out and fight and do all the things she wants to do. Like have a life of any kind. While her brother loves her he kind of doesn’t pay attention to what’s going on with her at all. It never even occurs to him that maybe she’s not super psyched about watching over her sickly uncle all the time. He just assumes she’s cool with it because that’s what ladies do. It’s Gandalf who points out to Eomer, later, that maybe he should have thought about what it was like for her to be cooped up in Meduseld, watching her family disintegrate and the world fall apart. That she had no less of a fierce spirit than he does, just because she’s female. In the book, Eomer has a major realization after that, that he might not really have ever known his sister. This is a bit of a running theme when it comes to Eowyn.

Beyond being undervalued, Eowyn is also being stalked by a gross little man who is slowly poisoning her uncle’s mind and clearly expects to get her as a “reward” later. Eowyn isn’t stupid, she’s well aware of the danger she’s in and that she has basically no one to turn to if things go majorly south, especially once Eomer is banished. Her life is exactly what she most fears: a cage. She has a lot of very good reasons to feel trapped and bitter.

Enter Aragorn, who in the books is a lot more Arrogant Lordly Dude and a lot less Scruffy Nice Guy Reluctant Hero. In him she sees someone actually kingly, something her uncle hasn’t been in a long time. She sees a leader, someone with strength and resolve. Someone worth following into battle, which she longs to do, and maybe most notably: someone she’s not related to who isn’t tied to Rohan and the life she’s been forced to live there. She mistakes this for love but in reality it’s that she’s just so sick of wasting away and being told that her only purpose is as a doddering old man’s crutch, that he looks pretty good as a means of escape. For a while.

Now, once Gandalf fixes Theoden everyone goes off to do Important Things and sort of forgets about her. As per usual. Now that the king is better no one seems to consider what she wants out of life, what her hopes or dreams are, what she can contribute beyond helping the men be more manly. That’s got to chafe. In the book we see this much more clearly, that while Theoden has been restored to sanity, in many ways things haven’t changed for Eowyn much at all.

Still, while the films don’t go into all this nuance, we do get to see her caring for her dying cousin, dealing with Wormtongue, and the acknowledgement that life for ladies wasn’t exactly on equal footing. Unfortunately, once she meets Aragorn, things start to get wonky. Not because I have any problem with romantic storylines! I love them. And I especially love Tolkien’s particular brand of doomed, tragic, romance. Even the “happy” ones are going to end badly, as we see with Arwen.

My issue is with the way they had Eowyn moon over Aragorn in the films. And it hinges on a key scene from the book that they left out completely. In it, Aragorn tells Eowyn that she can’t come with him on The Paths of the Dead because her people need her and that renown isn’t really all it’s cracked up to be. He’s not wrong, exactly, but he basically tells her it’s her duty to stay behind, something he would never say to her uncle or brother.

And she calls him on it. Flat out. She tells him, “All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.”

Think about that for a moment. Not only is she calling him out for sexism, she lays out why it’s sexist and does a pretty damn fine job of distilling down the lot of women in this culture. To whit: if there aren’t men around, you don’t really matter, and you definitely don’t get to decide for yourself how you live OR die if you’re a lady. That’s very powerful, especially in a series that deals a lot with the trappings of war and glory from a distinctly masculine point of view.

She doesn’t come even remotely close to saying anything like that in the film, instead pleading with him out of love, giving a lot of doe eyed looks, and generally being deferential instead of defiant. It undermines her character’s strength and feminist bent. Because although she thinks she’s in love with Aragorn she has no problem telling him he’s completely full of ****. Full of sexist ****, in fact.

This matters because A. Aragorn is one of the good guys and he’s still being a complete ass B. it shows that though Eowyn may have fuzzy feelings about him she is not some spineless, weepy, floormat begging for scraps of love. She’s not going to put up with crap from anyone. This seems incredibly central to her character to me and yet…it’s not even touched on in the film. The closest we get is the line about women in that country knowing that those without swords can still die upon them and fearing neither death nor pain…but it lacks the context and direct confrontation of sexism that the book provides.

This brings me to the scene with the Lord of the Nazgûl. In the film she’s terrified, which is understandable, but they stripped out the amazing speech she gives as, scared as she is, she stands up to only the second most awful creature in the series. Don’t forget, the Lord of the Nazgûl is Sauron’s second in command. Grown men cower at the sound of his voice. He stabbed Frodo at Weathertop. He even freaks out Gandalf.

So, this terrifying monster thing has just mortally wounded her uncle and she tells it where it can stick it in one of my favorite passages in the whole series.

quote:
"“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!”

A cold voice answered: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.”

A sword rang as it was drawn. “Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.”

“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel.

“But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.”

This got distilled down to “I am no man.” Look, I know they couldn’t have just put this in verbatim, it’s got an old-timey cadence and they’d already tweaked other dialog to be less formal. But. There is so much more here than “I am no man.”

First of all, he didn’t just threaten her with death. He threatened her with horrifying, endless torture and mind rape, basically. And she laughs at him. And then she stabs him in the face. What’s more? She makes him afraid before she does it because up until then, he thought he was immortal. Whoops!

I think you lose a lot of important nuance by over simplifying it to “I am no man.”

Still, I could have lived with that except for what comes after.

See, in the book, she’s falls over onto her enemy because he’s so evil that his death nearly kills her. She’s found later on the battlefield and they think she’s dead. Eomer is incredibly upset (understandably) and ends up going off in a foul, suicidal mood, where he and the other riders chant “death, death, death” as they cut a swath through the enemy. It’s pretty bleak.

The movie, for no reason I can fathom, decides that Eowyn can’t just kill the Witch King. Nope. After this huge showdown she also needs to be chased by Tumor the Orc, an enemy we got introduced to that isn’t A. interesting B. even in the same category of terrifying as the Witch King. He’s completely beneath her as a foe at this point.

So far as I can tell he exists so that Aragorn can kill him and “save” her, without actually knowing he did so. Which is just…weird. Why would you have this amazing moment where Eowyn defeats an enemy literally no one else in Middle Earth could have…and then have her crawling away from a generic, malignant orc in the aftermath? And why does Aragorn need to save her? What does this do for either character? Other than undermine her achievement, of course.

It’s one of the most perplexing character and narrative choices/changes in the films. What’s more: I don’t think it occurred to anyone that, along with making her overly lovesick, they inadvertently damsel’d her. For me, it’s a frustrating example of casual sexism creeping in. It’s even more frustrating when you realize Tolkien, writing in a time that was quite a bit less progressive than now for women, did it better. Sticking closer to the original narrative and character would have solved this issue neatly. It stands out as pointless and tacked on.

After all of this, Eowyn ends up in the Houses of Healing and eventually meets Faramir. They develop a strong bond, one based on compassion and understanding, and we see that Faramir truly appreciates her for who she is. He knows she’s a warrior and a queen in her own right, he never talks down to her or treats her as less than his equal. We get a hint of this in the extended edition of Return of the King, and I know they didn’t really have time to do more. Yet I still miss that relationship because it says so much about both characters. Eowyn ends up discovering what real love is and finally being seen by someone for the amazing person she is.

I guess what bugs me most is that they took a legitimately “strong” female character, and by that I mean a complex, flawed, brave, and ultimately a triumphant warrior woman who has her own major arc…and reduced her down to something less than that. To me, strength in a character is about more than their ability to hit or kill things, and while Eowyn’s big moment is certainly defeating The Lord of the Nazgûl, it’s her defiance in the face of insurmountable odds that truly makes her “strong”. I wish the film version had honored that more.

Because that would have been honoring the proto-feminist character Tolkien created.

From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
faithfull
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 11417

posted      Profile for faithfull   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Good article, Snowdog.
Rochwen, I wonder if Aragorn's lack of public praise toward her was out of a fear of encouraging her romantic feelings, especially when we consider her physical condition, and also the fact that Aragorn had to call her back from the brink of death, using the athelas.
I also wonder if her choice not to go to Cormallen was good self-care. For all that she was a strong hero, she was also an introvert. She wanted to do important, valiant works, but she did not seek the spotlight. It would have been exhausting for a person like her to put a happy face on through a day like that, and it would have been taxing for Arwen and Aragorn to interact with her, knowing her feelings. I think her choice not to attend the celebration was a choice made through high emotional intelligence, and demonstrates Tolkien's sensitivity.

From: East of the sun, West of the moon | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Anorgil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4494
posted      Profile for Anorgil   Email Anorgil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Anyway, I've always thought that the Witch King was killed by the sword that Merry used against him. Merry's sword had a spell on it that made it able to slay the Witch King.
Nope. Merry stabbed the Witch King before Éowyn did. If Merry's had been the killing blow, then Éowyn wouldn't have stabbed anything except empty air, her sword wouldn't have broken, and her arm wouldn't have gone cold.

Merry's attack made it possible for Éowyn to strike the fatal blow; it was not fatal itself.

[ 03-27-2015, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Anorgil ]

From: Illinois or Iowa | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » The Tolkien Eowyn...
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1