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Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » The Decline and Fall of Arnor (Page 3)
Author Topic: The Decline and Fall of Arnor
Roll of Honor Thorin
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Thank you! But he makes us all look like dolts.
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Snöwdog
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Not really.
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Roll of Honor Thangail
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Incidentally, IIRC there is a line in the Appendix about the decline of Arnor being in due part to the grevious losses the Army of Arnor suffered on the Dagorlad and siege of Barudur, with the Gladden Fields being the final straw, so to speak.

It seems that the already sparsely populated Arnor suffered heavily in the campaign (much like Thranduils Army).

I am not sure if this is correct, but I believe Gondor's Army fought in the South, and not mainly at the Black gate etc.

This would've made sense if Elendils Army was the 'main' army of men, and hence suffered the most.

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Prince Imrahil
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quote:
Incidentally, IIRC there is a line in the Appendix about the decline of Arnor being in due part to the grevious losses the Army of Arnor suffered on the Dagorlad and siege of Barudur
In the North after the war and the slaughter of the Gladden Fields the Men of Westernesse were diminished, and their city of Annuminas beside Lake Evendim fell into ruin...
"The Council of Elrond" -FotR

P.S. Is it just me, or does Thorin make the best/most enjoyable threads?

[ 05-21-2006, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Prince Imrahil ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

-Minas Tirith

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Why, thank you for the compliment! However, my batting average is not perfect. See this strike out: Goblin-gate of Eyne.
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Snöwdog
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Thorin, thought you would be interested to know that your fine thesis o fthis which (hopefully it was) you posted on Barrow Downs is getting some good responses of late! []
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Nope, that wasn't me! It looks like someone just copied and pasted. Strangely, they left in the footnote citations but didn't copy the footnotes themselves.

You're right, Snowdog, there are some good responses there. I especially liked the ideas regarding the Fourth Age.

Thanks for pointing this out!

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Snöwdog
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quote:
In the North after the war and the slaughter of the Gladden Fields the Men of Westernesse were diminished, and their city of Annuminas beside Lake Evendim fell into ruin...
"The Council of Elrond" -FotR

An aside that sort of fits under the umbrella of this topic. The city of Annuminas. Tolkien says that the Men of Westernesse were diminished and the city fell into ruin. I would think such a grand city established by Elendil wouldn't just be abandoned outright, but may have became deserted in the years thereafter, until Fornost was established as the seat of government. The dwindling and abandonment may have happened over hundreds of years.


Here is a quote from the notes on Encyclopedia of Arda:

At the Council of Elrond, Elrond recounts some of the history of Annúminas: '...after the war and slaughter of the Gladden Fields the Men of Westernesse were diminished, and their city of Annúminas beside Lake Evendim fell into ruin; and the heirs of Valandil removed and dwelt at Fornost...' (The Lord of the Rings II 2 The Council of Elrond). This suggests an early abandonment, perhaps even by Valandil's immediate successor, Eldacar. The earliest date possible, then, is III 249, the year of Eldacar's accession, but the phrase 'heirs of Valandil' suggests that Annúminas was abandoned somewhat later than this.
It seems reasonable to assume that Annúminas was abandoned some centuries later, at the time of the break-up of Arnor in III 861, and this seems to be confirmed by a note in volume 12 of The History of Middle-earth: 'After Eärendur the Northern Kingdom of Arnor was broken up ... Annúminas became deserted owing to the dwindling of the people.' (The Peoples of Middle-earth - 7 The Heirs of Elendil).

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Hamfast Gamgee
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I'm not totally sure that there would have been no intermingling between the Dunedain of Arnor and the lesser Men of Arnor. In Bree for example?
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Snöwdog
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quote:
I'm not totally sure that there would have been no intermingling between the Dunedain of Arnor and the lesser Men of Arnor. In Bree for example?
What... those rowdy rangers taking leave and having their way with the easy barmaids of the Forsaken Brothel... I mean Inn?
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Careful, Snowy, there are some around here that get very grumpy if someone even hints that sex exists in ME let alone sex outside wedlock! Ayer all people ca slaughter wholesale, become angst ridden, committ all kind of sins , but no listful feelings! Save one maybe. []
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Belthronding
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Great thread.

Re: the relative lifespan of Numenoreans vs the line of Elros vs the men of ME, I did not see this quote mentioned:

From Unfinished Tales, Part II, Section III The Line of Elros -
quote:
For to the Numenoreans long life had been granted, and they remained unwearied for thrice the span of mortal Men in Middle Earth; but to Earendil's son the longest life of any Man was given, and to his descendants a lesser span; and so it was until the coming of the Shadow, when the years of the Numenoreans began to wane.
Also we have the story of Aldarion and Erendis, in which the longer lifespan of the Line of Elros is both explicitly and indirectly noted several times.

These quotes concern a far earlier time than that occupied by the Kingdom of Arnor and the Northern Line of Kings, but it is reasonable to assume that the longer lifespan passed directly to Aragorn, who himself lived to a positively Numenorean age of 250.

Interesting how the purity of the Northern line contributed to Arnor's decline and fall, only to end up producing Aragorn, the vessel of the Dunedain's ultimate redemption.

One last thought on Thorin's thesis, let us not discount the role of The Witch King, Sauron's most fearsome and capable servant. His achievements against all the realms of Numenor in exile are hard to discount.

[ 11-06-2014, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Belthronding ]

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Snöwdog
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Being that Arnor fell into disunion with the fracture of Third Age 863, it was already declining when the Witch King arrived around Third Age 1300. From that point on, they had constant evil pressure for the next 700 years (675?).
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Hamfast Gamgee
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And of course all of those orgies they used to have at the Forsaken Inn couldn't have helped either!
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Snöwdog
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Careful, Hamfast, there are some around here that get very grumpy if someone even hints that sex exists in ME let alone sex outside wedlock! To suggest that outright orgies were going on.... []
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The Flammifer
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quote:
These quotes concern a far earlier time than that occupied by the Kingdom of Arnor and the Northern Line of Kings, but it is reasonable to assume that the longer lifespan passed directly to Aragorn, who himself lived to a positively Numenorean age of 250.
It is interesting to note that Aragorn was born on Mar. 1st 2931, and died on Mar. 1st 3141 (SR 1541). He was only 210, not 250.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Yes, I don't think that the Valar allowed the Numenoreans to live much beyond 200 at that time, even for someone like Aragorn.
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The Flammifer
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Agreed Hamfast but. . .
Aragorn had the special dispensation to give up his life at a time of his choosing and could have remained for several more years.

Speaking to Arwen:
quote:
Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned, and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will. . . (LOTR, Appendix A, Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)


[ 11-12-2014, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: The Flammifer ]

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Snöwdog
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quote:
Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned, and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will. . . (LOTR, Appendix A, Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)
Does anyone think this suggests that maybe Aragorn was sensing his mental abilities were beginning to fail?
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Was this a special dispotation to Aragorn or could any of the major leaders of the Dunedain do this?
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The Flammifer
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“I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will. . .”

… he felt the approach of old age and knew that the span of his life-days was drawing to an end…


As he said to Arwen: …would you indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned and witless…

It seems to me he still had his faculties, but at 210 years he knew his time drew near and he had the foresight, the courage, and the composure to accept his destiny before this destiny overcame him.

I believe this grace was given only to the Kings of Numenor by Eru (possibly the Valar?).
I don't think this "privilege" would pass to just any Numenorean (or Ranger, if you will)>

[] [] []

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Some of the Dunedain might have been long-lived, however.
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Snöwdog
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I have always considered the gift was given to the Edain, with the royal line blessed with even longer life. Otherwise, for example, why would the racism and civil war over the mingling of the Northmen in Gondor be a big deal?
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Hamfast Gamgee
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We still don't really know if this was exclusive the the Royals, however, Tolkien I don't think says anywhere who was the longest lived Numenorean. Probably Elros with nearly 500 years, but we don't know. And if you consider that the royal line did change quite a few times, who can really say who was the direct descendent from the Numenorean Kings and Queens from the old age.
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Anorgil
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The subject of Aragorn dying reminds me of what Gandalf had said to Denethor:

"Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death... And only the heathen kings, under the dominion of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death" (The Lord of the Rings, Book V, Chapter 7, paragraph 31).

Aragorn may not have slain himself in pride and despair, and he certainly didn't murder his kin to ease his own death, but Gandalf seems to be saying that no king had ever "ordered the hour of his death" any other way.

Granted, he only had so much time to try to convince Denethor not to kill himself and Faramir, and even if the Kings of Númenor did have the authority to order the hour of their deaths, I guess that wasn't relevant to his case.

Still, I think it would be interesting to compare and contrast the suicides of the "heathen kings under the dominion of the Dark Power" with those of the Kings of Númenor.

[ 05-03-2015, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Anorgil ]

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